RIP Pono and Pono Music Store

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by SKBubba, Apr 21, 2017.

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  1. Ephi82

    Ephi82 Still have two ears working

    Location:
    S FL
    Actually this thread has been pretty fair.

    I think the PONO player is a very good product, and Neil's vision for a high quality listening experience was on the money.

    That said, I don't think that Neil should be held above criticism. He made the decision to be PONOS poster boy, and his reputation and popularity as an artist fueled consumers support of his company.

    My concern with Neil, and PONO, is that they have not made it easy for their customers to understand what is going on. His most recent communication, and that of the PONO support guy, were buried in their website. It should have come through a press release and prominently placed on their web site landing page.

    Updating a web site landing page is VERY short money. ( I am a career Sales and Marketing person)

    Neil owes his customers better than this.

    By the way, still love my PONO and for the most part, Neil's music
     
    O Don Piano likes this.
  2. O Don Piano

    O Don Piano Senior Member

    You're right. Great post!
    Neil is not a businessman.
     
  3. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    What amps or portables have you tried the HD650 with?

    What it means to properly drive the HD650 is a matter of personal sonic preference and a matter of degree and authority.

    To me the PonoPlayer properly drives the HD650 with the sonic style and sonic presentation and size and shape of the soundstage that I like. Not many amps and sources can do that until you get into gear that is more expensive. On the other hand, the PonoPlayer in balanced mode doesn't quite have the oomph and authority to give the HD650 the kick and energy that the HD650 is capable of when properly driven. You end up with a more laid-back style of sound with the Pono and HD650 combo. It sounds very good. But it's not going to be as energetic as some people will want. Big amps can do better at getting the HD650 to have oomph and drive and energy. I've also heard big amps that do worse with the HD650.

    So it all depends on what sonic priorities you have in deciding if the PonoPlayer can properly drive the HD650 in balanced mode. I like the Pono and HD650 combo. I can listen to the HD650 like that all day (or until the battery on the Pono runs out). But I'd also be picking music that matches to that style of sound presentation. Classical, jazz, classic rock, Grateful Dead, things like that. I generally wouldn't be playing things like Iron Maiden on the Pono HD650 combo. For things like Iron Maiden I'd tend or want to switch to a different headphone, like the Audeze SINE (balanced).
     
  4. MikaelaArsenault

    MikaelaArsenault Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Hampshire
  5. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital

    Well, this has been fun, why not end with some gentle and melodic Neal! You know it could be time for Neal to retire and enjoy his time, picking on the front porch with no one around. If I hear ole Neal on another awards show or anywhere for that matter, well, I'm not sure I can handle those solid guitar licks and his commanding stage presence, oh my, where is Steven Stills when you need him!
     
  6. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital

    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
  7. Atmospheric

    Atmospheric Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eugene
    Who is "Neal?" Cassidy?
     
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  8. vegafleet

    vegafleet Forum Resident


    This is my pet peeve with the HD650: when I bought it nobody told me that I needed a headphone amp to drive them properly. Got them and they sounded terrible on my I-devices, my Fiios running out of the computer, and my Yamaha receiver. I did not know any better. and I suffered with them for a few months and went back to my HD598. I am very happy with these and they sound good with everything.

    I have not settled on what to buy to drive the HD650s. I was considering the Pono but given these news (and your advice which I highly respect) I guess I have to go back to looking at standalone amps. My problem is that I really want one with balance (L-R) controls, and that seems to be hard to find.
     
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  9. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Perfect Sound Through Crystal Clear Digital

    Sorry my friend, incorrect spelling, I'm just so used to Neal, but I will give you one more guess on which Neal/Neil I might be talking about, considering what thread this is, I know you will guess correctly.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2017
  10. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    Compared to Fiio and iDevices the PonoPlayer will make the HD650 sound amazing. Amazing in a way that will make you say "I didn't know the HD650 could sound like this and have this much soundstage depth and space around the sound".

    When I'm criticizing the sound of the PonoPlayer I'm being critical about its sound against gear that costs more (much more) or gear that has a sound signature that doesn't agree with me. As an example, I'd consider a Cavalli Liquid Carbon balanced amp (a $700 amp) and a Schiit Modi Multibit (a $250 DAC) to be a desktop system that can compete with the sound of the PonoPlayer. I have both. The Cavalli & Schiit multibit combo has better transients and dynamics when driving the HD650 (balanced) than the PonoPlayer. But the PonoPlayer has deeper bass and more soundstage depth and better soundstage center imaging than the Cavalli & Schiit multibit combo. I'd consider the Cavalli Liquid Carbon amp to drive the HD650 better. But there are times and some music where I would prefer listening to the PonoPlayer over the Cavalli Liquid Carbon & Schiit multibit combo. I consider the PonoPlayer and HD650 (balanced) combo to be playing in the big leagues with gear that costs double (and more) the price of the Pono. But all this depends on what style of sound signature you're after. If you're after a flatter and more dynamic and energetic sound then you'll probably find my opinions about amps and DACs and headphones to be nuts.

    I consider the PonoPlayer to be a portable player that plays well beyond its price point. A player that can give you a taste of what true high-end headphone sound can be like. A player that can let you hear the benefits of high-res over CD-res. A player that will let you hear clearly that the Pono is better than any Fiio. A player that Neil needed to make if he was going to promote high-res as sounding better than CD or MP3. It's difficult to hear the benefits of high-res on something like a Fiio or iPhone. It's easier to hear those benefits on a player like the Pono or a high-end speaker or headphone setup. I completely understand why Neil felt the need to make the PonoPlayer to promote high-res digital. Without the PonoPlayer most people are not going to hear much of a benefit with high-res digital compared to CD.

    For your needs with needing a balance control, I'd suggest either getting a good active pre-amp with a balance control to put before a good headphone amp or getting two passive volume knobs (to act as dual mono volume controls) to put between the source and headphone amp. Schiit makes a $50 passive single-ended volume control (you'd need two of them). TC Electric and Emotiva make an under $100 balanced passive volume knob that is similar (you'd need two of them). Then get a good dedicated headphone amp that can drive the HD650 well. The Schiit amps above the Vahalla do well with the HD650 (I'm not a fan of Schiit's lesser amps like the Vali and Magni, and don't really like the new version of the Asgard either, although the Asgard 2 isn't a bad amp it just happens to have a different sonic signature than I like). Or get some other good headphone amp. I find the Schiit amps to sound flatter with less soundstage depth than I like. I prefer having soundstage depth. I prefer amps/sources that have more soundstage depth even if that means sacrificing dynamic punch. Cavalli amps, the PonoPlayer, and the Schiit multibits are in the category of amps and sources that I like. Other people with different sonic preferences will choose differently.
     
  11. TimM

    TimM Senior Member

    My Fiio X5 2nd generation is the only thing I own that gets any life out of my HD650's. I did not care for the sound of the Pono player driving my HD650's although in fairness I was not listening in balanced mode.
     
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  12. vegafleet

    vegafleet Forum Resident

    Thanks, Ham, for your advice. Lots to think about. I am not crazy about the pre amp or the volume knobs ideas. At some point you just leave "good enough" alone, instead of adding more complexity (and stuff) to your inventory.
     
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  13. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    I don't care for the sound of the HD650 with the PonoPlayer in single ended mode either. The sound is boring. The sound is lacking punch and strength. Transients suffer. PRaT suffers. Boring.

    The PonoPlayer doesn't have enough oomph and power to drive the HD650 when single-ended. Balanced mode gets it about double the power. And the HD650 needs it. Now the sound is exciting. The sound has punch and strength and energy. Transients sound much better. PRaT is back and gets you feeling like dancing to the music while listening.
     
  14. Joey_Corleone

    Joey_Corleone Forum Resident

    Location:
    Rockford, MI
    Is anybody really surprised?
     
  15. Majestyk

    Majestyk Rush Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver
    I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did. If Pono went beyond portability and had a docking system to hook to a stereo and even had the ability to connect to a server, like Squeezebox...Well, I would have bought one.
     
    PhilBiker likes this.
  16. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    Neil had talked about licensing Pono for car audio and to other audio gear. Still could happen with the new streaming direction that Pono has taken.
     
  17. ukrules

    ukrules Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kentucky
    EXACTLY! That is not "keeping it simple".
     
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  18. Nostaljack

    Nostaljack Resident R&B enthusiast

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Disagree totally. iTunes isn't evil for me either. I've never had a problem with it in all the years I've used it. I've seen people complain about it ad nauseam and I don't get it at all.

    Ed
     
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  19. mindblanking

    mindblanking The Bourbon King

    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Pono music store was great! I could find early or obscure albums from bands I like, sample it, then click and it was purchased for a fair price. Much better than the robberies taking place on Amazon and eBay. I'd spend mornings just searching the store and discovered a lot of music I'd never heard before. It was like the worlds best record or cd store to me. Wil be sorely missed.
     
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  20. TimM

    TimM Senior Member

    I don't doubt that at all. I have a great deal of respect for your knowledge in all things related to headphone listening and I always value your posts. I do like the sound of my Fiio X5 and I know you don't care for their stuff, but those kind of things are just a matter of personal taste. Keep your posts coming, I've learned a lot from them.
     
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  21. Solitaire1

    Solitaire1 Carpenters Fan

    Although I haven't had too many bad experiences with iTunes, the one time that does come to mind is the upgrade to Version 12. I ran into issues such as clicking a check box and the box above the one I clicked on is the one that is checked. I ended up giving up on iTunes until the next minor upgrade, which seemed to fix the issues.

    One complaint I've had about iTunes is its appearance is glaring and difficult to look at over time. While I'm not hoping for skinning, I wish Apple would introduce some alternate color schemes for iTunes (such as a dark color scheme), or just let the users choose the colors for various items. As an example I find black text on an orange/brown background very readable, far more than iTunes black text on a bright white background.
     
    Charles Buxton likes this.
  22. MikaelaArsenault

    MikaelaArsenault Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Hampshire
    Like I have said before, the only reason that I use iTunes is for the internet radio feature. That's it.
     
  23. Atmospheric

    Atmospheric Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eugene
    Yeah, I have some UX design experience, along with my software documentation skills. The Apple user experience these days is all about brash trendiness, not simple elegant interfaces that "just work."

    I also suspect that Apple QA only tests against user environments that 100% comprise content downloaded or streamed from the iTunes store. They miss too many bugs having to do with third-party sound files, and alternative metadata. For me, iTunes still works the best, primarily because my other devices are also Apple devices. I'm captive to the ecosystem. But I like it less and less as time marches on. I now dread OS X and iTunes updates. What will they break this time?

    I recently spent about an hour with an Apple support person because my iPhone would no longer sync with OS X iTunes. I was sharing my screen out to him. At one point, I went through half a dozen annoyances in the iTunes UI. For example, "I used to be able to do this, but Apple broke that in version 11.x. Why? Just give me back that functionality. Make it a user preference." The support person was very constructive and promised to elevate those issues. But I have zero expectation that anything good will actually happen.
     
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  24. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    The user interface is totally non-intuitive, fugly, and they won't offer lossless.
     
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  25. vegafleet

    vegafleet Forum Resident


    And your opinion of the Oppo HA-2SE coupled with the HD650? I really want something portable around the room, not a stationary tabletop amp if I can avoid it. That was what sparked my initial interest in Pono.
     
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