Ripping SACDs

Thanks, yes that's why I was wondering about sample rates. Good to know there are players that output 24/176 over HDMI.

 

I think that it depends on the player. I believe that a number of the better players give you an option so selecting the down-sampling frequency. And it seems like the newer ones allow for higher sampling frequencies.

 

Nice approach if you have the machines, and can afford it, or have very few SACDs. But few people have the means spend around $100 per SACD on the tape for such an approach. It's usually far cheaper to buy a second copy.

However this still wont get the SACDs onto your computer, unless you subsequently digitize your tapes.

 

It sounds like it might be a useful utility to those who have already ripped their SACDs to ISO image files with a PS3, but its not going to help you very much if are starting from an actual SACD.

 

That is for two-channel only. Another method is to have your player modified to output 3xS/PDIF. Use one for stereo. Use all three to a suitable sound-card.

 

Good to know, thanks.

 

Still lossless - 24/192 PCM actually encodes more information than the DSD format used by SACD - although in theory there could be conversion artifacts. In practice, at those sample rates, can't imagine they'd be especially audible using good modern equipment.

My new el-cheapo Sony Blu-ray player can be set to output over HDMI either DSD (which my receiver can't read) or encrypted, protected high-res PCM (I'm assuming 24/192, but for some reason the receiver won't tell me - maybe the encryption forbids it?). There are supposedly devices which can work around the HDMI protection, but I don't own enough SACDs to make it really worthwhile.

I'm pretty much download-only for high res stuff now, unless I see a DVD-A / SACD / Blu-ray Audio title for sale cheap that I really, really want.

Given the quality of some outboard A/D converters available to consumers today, if I really, really wanted to back these few discs up I'd probably just buy a used Oppo and a good outboard multichannel A/D and exploit the "analog hole". At 24/192 I doubt anybody on earth could tell the difference between the originals and the copies in blind tests, let alone express a preference...

 

The PCM output from your Blu-ray player is probably 24/88.2. That's what most players use when converting DSD to PCM.

 

Past Sony Blu-ray players could output 24/176 PCM over HDMI from SACDs. Maybe it's mentionned in the specs.

 

Anyone interested in an Oppo DV-980H with 3 S/PDIF outputs? It's gathering dust now.

 

This would also be the preferred conversion rate to PCM for DSD. The math works out better.

 

It isn't. My receiver can do all sorts of post-processing on signals 96kHz and below. It can't process the signals coming from the Blu-ray player when playing SACDs, so the player must be feeding something in excess of 96kHz.

 

Guess it's 24/176.4 then. There is probably little audible difference between DSD converted into 24/88.2 and the same DSD source converted to 24/176.4, due to the high-frequency filtering that occurs during the conversion process.

 

First time I've heard of this - it's intriguing. I found an article that explains in more detail how it works. It says most SACD players won't do it because they emit a secret "handshake" code and won't output without a response. But some players will output without a code and the article says these include all Oppo players since the BDP-80.

http://everythingaudionetwork.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/audiophile-review-hdmi-de-embedder.html

Has anyone here actually done this? What I'm thinking is, what's the cheapest way of obtaining a player and a de-embedder that will do this successfully? I'm assuming my Sony SCD XA5400ES won't do it.

 

I'm using the Monoprice de-embedder with an Oppo 93.

For the HDMI handshake, you need to connect a HDMI display to the de-embedder. But it doesn't need to stay on after the handshake has been made succesfully.

This thread on Audiocircle has information on player/de-embedder combinations which work:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=82217.0

 

I believe that I helped motivate tedb to the HDMI audio de-embedder some years back; I had been doing it successfully since 2007 using atlona products. First attempt with older Atlona box was only good up to 24/96 (which was fine for my then-interest of extracting hardware-decoded HDCD from an Oppo - 20/44 decoded HDCD output packed as 24/44 data on HDMI); Atlona AT-HD570 later rock-solid delivering up to 24/192, for audio from ps3/SACD and Oppo blu-ray audio. Info and various links found here, here, here, here, here, ….; you can search here on SHF, and over on head-fi, i.e. for emmodad+atlona

BTW, you don't necessarily need a downstream HDMI display to provide the handshake, as example I used an hdFury 1 adapter left connected on the Atlona HDMI output.

 

So if I'm understanding this correctly, it's not the handshake that's the problem, because any SACD player/HDMI de-embedder can be connected to an HDMI display. Rather, it's the ability of the SACD player to output PCM through its HDMI out. Since the Sony SCD XA5400ES only outputs DSD through its HDMI out, it won't work. Is that right?

If we're talking purely about SACD, are there any low-cost players that will output PCM through their HDMI outs, or is it pretty much only Oppo?

HDMI embedders seem quite cheap - here's one:

KanexPro HDMI Audio De-Embedder with 3D Support

But the player could be a problem for those who don't already have an Oppo.

 

not addressing info provided by other posters, but a small expansion on my #66 to address your : the HDCP handshake must be properly addressed by the player HDMI out being connected to an HDMI input which can properly provide the HDCP authentication.

That HDMI input could be physically present on a variety of devices. One category could be a display with built-in HDCP-compliant HDMI input. Another category could be in addressing a situation where a display or projector has no physical HDMI input. i.e. using an HDMI-to-VGA converter which has an HDCP-compliant HDMI input; often used for sending i.e. blu-ray output to older home theatre projectors lacking a physical HDMI input.

 

Thank you very much but I'm still not getting it. It's easy to arrange HDCP authentication - all you do is connect an HDMI TV or something similar. I get that. But if that's all you need to do, then any SACD player would work and we know that's not the case. So why is it that, even when you have HDCP authentication, only Oppo players work and other players don't? That's what I don't get.

 

In the Audiocircle thread I've posted above, you can see that the problem is often not that "it's not working" (no sound at all), but that there are problems passing higher sampling rates. The de-embedders have been designed for a different purpose (splitting image and sound signals, to be able to use a HDMI source with older hardware), that's why it's hit and miss with the SACD task.

 

Cannot answer your question wrt "other" players... Regarding any specific SACD player, it comes down to a combination of capabilities/settings:

1/ does the player provide the capability for SACD DSD audio to be converted to PCM;
2/ will the player allow PCM format audio to be output via HDMI;
3/ will the player specifically permit SACD DSD-converted-to-PCM to be passed over HDMI.

(see ie the Oppo BDP-83 manual, available here, section Audio Format Setup pp56-57)

Oppo did (at least up through 83SE) allow all three of these, hence SACD-converted-to-PCM can be extracted from HDMI using an audio de-embedder.

 

Thanks very much, both of you - that's very informative. I think it's unlikely that the Sony SCD XA5400ES would satisfy all the criteria but if anyone reads this who knows for sure, I hope they'll say. (There are many owners on the forum.)

 

I've read through the AudioCircle thread noted above and there are a few conclusions that are relevant.

1. The Sony players output HiRez audio over HDMI but at only with a 16-bit word. Check out this review http://everythingaudionetwork.blogspot.com/2011/08/home cinema-review-sonys-es-dynamic-duo.html So with SACDs you'll get 16/176. According the the AC thread all the Sony players do this.

2. The need for a handshake depends on the player. Apparently you don't need one for some of the older Oppo's.

 

Sounds like that's only the case if you're trying to convert HDMI to SPDIF. If the player detects a receiver that supports encryption over HDMI, presumably it'll output full-rez audio.

 

Reading some of these threads on SACD ripping got me to thinking about a way I might capture high-res PCM off the relatively few SACD's I own. So I hooked up my Sony BR player via HDMI into the front input of my Oppo BDP-103 and set the Sony to output PCM over HDMI. The Oppo will then pass the PCM signal over its digital outputs (coax and optical Toslink). Listening on my Teac UD-H01 DAC, the 176.4 kHz light is lit up. So I guess the next step is to feed that digital signal into my Macbook Pro and record it with Audacity.