RocknRoll firsts

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by samthesham, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. stetsonic

    stetsonic Forum Resident

    Imagine that - a parallel universe where European music theory holds no sway...
  2. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe Forum Resident

    Speaking of interpretive dance, I just found this video again.

    It was from the German TV show Scene '78. What I love about it so much is that it is one single shot...and Kate is dancing around the camera. In 1978, cameras were too freaking big to be comfortably handheld, so the camera had to be supported on a big pneumatic pedestal like this:


    So there had to be the camera operator looking at the viewfinder, aiming it, at least one other person to help drag it around, and another person to handle the cable. There was also a tech handling the camera iris, as the Plumbicon tubes they used back then could burn by being aimed directly at a light.
    ribonucleic likes this.
  3. edenofflowers

    edenofflowers Forum Resident

    "4/4? This is music, sir, not mathematics!" :laugh:
    stetsonic likes this.
  4. edenofflowers

    edenofflowers Forum Resident

    And don't you with that person was you? :uhhuh: :righton:
  5. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe Forum Resident

    If I were, I would be so proud of my work! I think I'm a pretty good handheld camera operator, aiming a tiny little one pound camera, maybe my 5 pound Canon XH-A1. I never had to wrestle a thousand pound beast like this one and make it seem easy.
  6. edenofflowers

    edenofflowers Forum Resident

    Whilst having Kate at the other end as well. I think my legs would be wobblin' a bit too much to make a decent job of it.
  7. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe Forum Resident

    Nah, she was too made-up for that shoot. Not my favorite era at all. Give me Dreaming-era Kate.
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  8. wildstar

    wildstar Forum Resident

    ontario, canada

    The first true stereo Beatles album was A Hard Day's Night (mixed from 4 track to stereo - as well as to mono). Some of With the Beatles was recorded on four track, and none of the Please Please Me album was. They were issued in stereo but as they were recorded on a two-track machine (which Martin used as a multi-track machine - allowing for overdubbing - rather than recording live in "stereo") it was a weird - basic band track in one speaker and overdubbed track in the other speaker).

    They used 4 track to record almost (they occasionally used IIRC Trident for 8 track recording) exclusively (EMI hadn't yet installed an 8 track machine) until 1/2 to 3/4 of the way through the White album sessions. So even if you want to make a claim that:

    "Four tracks isn't enough to derive "true stereo" well then the White Album wouldn't be true stereo either since over half of it was recorded on four track" so Abbey Road would therefore be the first "true stereo" Beatles album.

    That wouldn't be correct of course since four track IS indeed enough to derive "true stereo" from. A great stereo image? Probably not, but "true stereo" nonetheless.

    As far as the claim "Early rough mixes were used for mono" that's preposterous. They didn't use early rough mixes for mono. They used (for the most part) dedicated mono mixes for the mono LP and dedicated stereo mixes for the stereo LP. One exception that comes to mind is Rev 9 was only mixed to stereo, and then "folded down" for the mono LP.

    ...and the 24 hours weren't meant, needed or used to exclusively "perfect the stereo mixes". The 24 hours were needed to do everything to get the album done:

    1 - review the tapes and decide what (if any) final overdubs were needed and which earlier (thought at the time to be final) mixed tracks needed to be revisited with a better mix

    2 - make new final mono and stereo mixes for all tracks that need them

    3 - work out the running order of all four sides (including deciding which - if any - completed tracks were to be dropped from consideration for inclusion on the album)

    4 - final editing of the tracks as well as working out the crossfades/hard edits between tracks.

    5 - also there's the possibility of the long rumoured but unconfirmed intentional layout of the album as being each side having the same number of tracks as letters in the surname of each band member (which would have required additional time and effort to work out such as keeping the side lengths more or less equal in running time):

    Side 1 - Harrison - 8 letters/8 songs
    Side 2 - McCartney - 9 letters/9 songs
    Side 3 - Starkey - 7 letters/7 songs
    Side 4 - Lennon - 6 letters/6 songs
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
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  9. samthesham

    samthesham Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Moorhead MN
    OK.Beatles Bible &Lewisohn and Lennon from Rolling Stone-Lennon interview 1970 are incorrect.I'm going to stick with these sources.Peace.
  10. IbMePdErRoIoAmL

    IbMePdErRoIoAmL lazy drunken hillbilly with a heart full of hate

    "Still a man hears what he wants to hear & disregards the rest."
    This thread should be dedicated to Paul Simon.
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  11. wildstar

    wildstar Forum Resident

    ontario, canada

    From Lewisohn's 'Recording Sessions' book:

    Wed/Thurs 16/17 Oct 1968:

    The header (which mentions every song that recieves a new mix during a particular session mentions a grand total of FOUR new mixes being made during that 24 hour session - MONO & stereo mixing of 'WDWDIITR' and (for some reason) 'It's All Too Much' was also mixed to mono and stereo during the session. How many other mixes made during that 24 hour session were mentioned? None!

    So what else WAS mentioned?

    1 - Crossfading and editing for the mono and stereo LPs

    2 - According to Alan Bown they were "...banding it up" (putting the songs in order and editing the master) and remember they had to do this for EIGHT sides of vinyl - 4 stereo and 4 mono. Or to put it another way - over three hours of music!

    BTW if you want to stick to those sources - cool. Lets see you cite some references from those sources - rather than just saying "I'm going to stick with these sources." without giving ANY examples!
    Darrin L. likes this.
  12. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover

    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    The Real Frank Zappa Book was published in 1989. In Chapter 18 is a section called 'A Proposal For A System To Replace Phonograph Record Merchandising'. After discussing CD replacing vinyl, FZ talks about digital music assets in a central (data) store which are available direct to consumers' homes via phone or cable TV connections. He writes:

    The consumer has the option of subscribing to one or more 'special interest category', charged at a monthly rate, WITHOUT REGARD FOR THE QUANTITY OF MUSIC THE CUSTOMER WISHES TO TAPE.

    Providing material in such quantity at a reduced cost could actually diminish the desire to duplicate and store it, since it would be available any time day or night.

    [caps are FZ's]

    The article talks about DAT and Sony F1, so was an all digital system. FZ goes on to say that cable TV companies could make album art, etc. available to consumers too, which mirrors the meta-data in current streaming/download services.

    Of course, someone could make a case for Pete Townshend's Lifehouse from 1971 being ahead of all of this!
  13. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    It was broadcast on the same episode of the Tonight Show on which David Bowie told Johnny Carson that he was bisexual.
  14. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe Forum Resident

    Townshend didn't actually try to build it though. Todd was working with the Time-Warner Full Service Network to build a streaming music service in 1994, where they actually used a Silicon Graphics Indy workstation in every user's home.

    We were approached by Time-Warner for full-scale experiment in interactive television, put fiber to the curb. Used a SGI Indy, almost crushed half the TVs they put it on. ’94, designed a system to have on-demand music into people’s homes, needed to get the content though. Went to 6 remaining record labels, at least half wouldn’t take a meeting, of the ones that did they were polite but nobody could wrap their minds around it, one was getting licensing from each of the artists, and second that they depended on retail. They would p*ss off Walmart and they wouldn't shelve their records. We couldn’t even get Warner Brothers to license a single artist, and it was owned by the same company.
    Watch this talk about his experience trying to drag the record industry into the 21st century.

  15. IbMePdErRoIoAmL

    IbMePdErRoIoAmL lazy drunken hillbilly with a heart full of hate

    I think you're right! Wasn't that the episode wherein Jiminy Hendricks said his favorite guitarist was Ronald McDonald?
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
    uzn007, WilliamWes and Darrin L. like this.
  16. Darrin L.

    Darrin L. Forum Resident

    He never cites references or sources, and when you provide cites, sources, and links, he disregards them and becomes hostile that you have the audacity to question him and his "research.
    IbMePdErRoIoAmL likes this.
  17. InStepWithTheStars

    InStepWithTheStars It's a miracle, let it alter you

    Bloody hell! :laugh: God damn it, well I guess Todd invented Joe Jackson too.
    I would argue that the reason there was no applause was because Joe lost his talent after I'm The Man, but someone would get pissed at me...

    Todd's always been about fifteen years in the future. Wasn't No World Order designed to program the tracks in any order you wanted as well?

    I would love for him to make a prediction that says "People are gonna start using their ears and realize that an unchanging brick of noise sounds like dog ****." Maybe wishful thinking - I dunno.
  18. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe Forum Resident

    It was a bit more involved. To quote the Wikipedia article:

    The interactive version included the ability to alter the playback of the music by selecting a pre-determined sequence by either Rundgren or one of his four guest producers - Don Was, Jerry Harrison, Hal Wilner and Bob Clearmountain. The interface allowed the listener to control various aspects of music playback. If the user did nothing, the Rundgren mix would start and play through to the end.

    The interactive interface presented standard playback controls and the following major functions, plus a help function:

    • Program
    (TR-i, Hal Wilner, Bob Clearmountain, Jerry Harrison, Don Was)
    • Direction
    (Very Fast Forward, Fast Forward, Forward, Hold, Reverse)
    • Form
    (Creative, Standard, Conservative)
    • Tempo
    (Fastest 132 BPM, Faster 126 BPM, Fast 120 BPM, Medium 110 BPM, Slow 100 BPM, Slower 92 BPM, Slowest 96 BPM)
    • Mood
    (Bright, Happy, Thoughtful, Sad, Dark)
    • Mix
    (Karaoke, Thick, Natural, Spacious, Sparse)
    • Video
    (Blank, Warp, Swarm, Title, Editor)

    The material on the disc was 933 4-bar musical segments.[4] Each was a portion of one of the songs, accompanied by metadata describing the character of the segment - tempo in BPM, mood, chorus or verse, etc. Each segment was available in multiple mixes as well, from instrumental to a cappella. As the listener adjusted parameters, the currently playing segment would finish before starting a new segment, ensuring a seamless listening experience.[5]

    The interface had the unique (at the time) property of allowing the user to select a range rather than a single value when adjusting a parameter. One could select a fast tempo, reducing the range so only that fast tempo segments were played, or increase the range so medium to fast were played, weighting towards fast.


    Todd and his collaborator David Levine wrote the whole system. The original idea was to use this with other albums. At one point, this was going to be the platform for SMiLE.

    I had the idea to take this concept and apply it to one's entire music library, that you could get either the "flat" version of an album or track or one that would be used interactively, making playlists and mashups from your entire music library.
    WilliamWes likes this.
  19. Hamhead

    Hamhead Sinatra promo specialist

    First Christian rock album - 1965

  20. samthesham

    samthesham Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Moorhead MN
    Finally released on Tetragrammaton and Track records in UK &US.Refused to be issued by EMI John LLennon's Two Virgins is the 1st record in RnR to have the artists (Lennon&Yoko) nude on the cover.Lennon had this done to show the world Yoko&himself were in fact not freaks but normal human beings.The record was shipped in s brown paper bag with a cut to see their faces.It was reissued in 80s.I still have my bought new in 1968 copy.Peace.
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  21. edenofflowers

    edenofflowers Forum Resident

    Considering the way he's been mixing and mastering his own albums since at least 2008 he probably won't be bringing that up any time soon. He can write wonderful songs and come up with some creative arrangements and productions but I can't think of one record of his I could hold up as an audiophile's delight from his own albums to his productions for others. He's got a Godlike ear for some things but a poor one for others.
  22. InStepWithTheStars

    InStepWithTheStars It's a miracle, let it alter you

    I recall some saying that either the hi-res or surround sound or something of Liars sounded audiophile-worthy, but I can't remember.

    Sadly at the moment, all I have of Todd's is the Bearsville CD box and the 1997 or 1998 Rhino "Very Best Of". The flea market seller had a buy-two-get-one-free deal, and I recognized his name from the credits of Badfinger's Straight Up (in my all-time top three) and numerous other production ventures. It took about nine or ten months to actually listen to it, but when I did, oh man...
    edenofflowers likes this.
  23. alchemy

    alchemy Forum Resident

    Sterling, VA

    And on 4 different labels no less, would never happen today! But it added heat to their early rise.
  24. uzn007

    uzn007 Pack Rat

    Baja Virginia
    Imagine that... a parallel universe where 4 is not a power of 2.
  25. jeddy

    jeddy Forum Resident

    Wasn't it first used in the song ARTHER McBRIDE
    that Dylan made popular on "good as I been to you"

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