Rogue Cronus Magnum II vs McIntosh

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Guy Gadbois, Jun 19, 2016.

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  1. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    Pretty much my point on the Perseus. The Atlas and PM would be a great setup, but even with a lesser amp I think it would beat the CM ( and I liked my CM a lot!)

    The boards I've seen on well made Rogue and ARC gear have no issue at all with the sockets soldered to them. They also have a small air gap between the socket and board and that is plenty to isolate the heat.
     
  2. theron d

    theron d Forum Resident

    Location:
    Baltimore MD

    Really, now this is interesting, as in I have a Cronus Magnum II (Mullard in center channel, Telefunkin 12Ax7) and love it matched with some Harbeth 7ES3. Now how much better is the SS with Preseus Mag in comparison if you have?
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2016
  3. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    The CMII is a big improvement from the I in the phono stage department and maybe headphone as well. Both were very weak in the first one. The Perseus is a tremendous sounding preamp with a standalone quality phono stage. I only had the Perseus for a few days on a demo before getting my RP5. I ran it with my used ARC D240mkII as well as a Parasound A23 and an ARC VS110 tube amp.

    I also ran the D240 with my LS27 while my Ref75 was being upgraded to an SE. And have also matched it with my SP16 tube preamp. I think many assume you need to be all tube to get the magic we all seek, but I have come to believe that the preamp is really key to the magic.

    Btw, ive heard that the Mullard in the center position is a great upgrade to the Cronos amps.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2016
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  4. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    I wonder how much chassis mounted tube sockets will drive up the production costs vs the PC board mounted tube sockets?
     
  5. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    I believe SS amp and tube preamp make a good combo and I have tried that ...
     
  6. BIGGER Dave

    BIGGER Dave Forum Resident

    Intersting you mention ARC. I just passed on an ARC SP16 that is for sale locally because (1) I'm not keen on PC mounted tube sockets, and (2) I didn't care for the Volume +/- buttons. What's wrong with a simple volume pot? But if you are confident that the way ARC implements PC mounted tube sockets isn't a liability, I maybe consider....
     
  7. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    Not enough to heat involved in a preamp tube to really work about anyway. MyVS110 is 10 years or so old and the board is perfect under the power tubes.

    The SP16 is a nice preamp. I think they wanted to make it follow the front layout of the CD player and the face of their preamps had gotten a bit cluttered and maybe they went a bit far, though the design stayed the same on the SP17 which was in production until very recently.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2016
  8. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    What you may be wanting is this:

    [​IMG]

    This is the Matched Pair Psvane UK-EL34 HIFI series Vacuum Tubes from Amazon.

    This is where the manufacturer has attempted to replicate the original Mullard sound, which, of course, they don't really do. But they do have that sort of NOS sound from the United Kingdom that sounds somewhat like old UK tubes. You can find them for about $40-$45 each.

    If you figure that a typical Mullard NOS tube will set you back about $200 each, these would be the way to go. As far as I can tell, they are a good tube. I bought two quads of them for the Rogue M-150 monoblocks. While I am generally happy with the sound, I'm not head over heels for them.

    If you want the sound of NOS Mullards, then that is what you have to buy. You can buy reissued Mullards for less then $20-each. They don't even come closse to sounding like the NOS ones. The UK version seems to be the best compromise for me.

    Even used old stock Mullards seem to be about $90-each.

    I have my amps on most of the day because I live where I work, so I don't relish spending stupid money on something that I am likely to burn out relatively soon. If I was going to listen 2-4 hours a day, like many do, I would spring for more top shelf tubes.

    Real NOS Mullards would have cost me $1,500-$1,600. Way to rich for my blood.

    When I put the UK-EL34's into the monoblocks, I had to really turn the bias pots a whole lot of turns to re-bias them. This seems to along the lines with the information that you have.

    They had a nice natural sound, lacking in bass from the stock KT88's that Rogue uses but this was expected. I didn't see a real issue here because the A7's bass cabinet is good down to around 60-cycles and I have a commercial subwoofer that goes down to 37-cycles (-3dB). I figured, that if I needed a boost in the bass dept, I could just trun up the sub a bit more (it is powered by a Crown class-D amp in bridged mode, the lack of bass shouln't be a problem.

    After a bit, I acquired a a Nelson Pass design Aleph J and I switched from the monoblocks to the Aleph.

    A while later, I decided to put the KT88's back on the monoblocks. WOW! the sound went from small and detailed to really huge full sound. (The Aleph's were very detailed, like a cross between a tube and SS, but they lacked a full sound).

    I comment on this because I had the Aleph J between listening to the EL34's and the KT88's.

    One question that I am asking myself is, do the KT34's seem more like magic midrange because they don't have the ability to give strong bass, so you notice the midrange more or are the KT88's a excellent tube having almost the same tube magic midrange AND bass? I tend to believe the latter is more true.
     
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  9. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    It's preposterous. The reality is this - tube amps tend to sound rather vastly different from each other - and moreover tube amps from the SAME company sound quite a lot different from each other. Some amps sound leaner and thinner (and to some that is faster or more accurate sounding). I bought a Sugden A48b over a Musical Fidelity A300 and it wasn't close to me. BUT the Sugden was traded by the owner FOR that Musical Fidelity!! Now it depends what you valued more - the MF at double the power had more air and wider soundstage and sound all together bigger on big music and in Hi-Fi slam bang gee whiz effects it's a better amplifier - but the Sugden was much better on intimite music with deeper rich bass and more tonal shadings and a valve like quality. It was to me a dramatically more musical sounding amplifier.

    And be wary of anyone on any forum who says "at a show they heard" X sound better than Y - any such poster who tells you jack squat based on show auditions a clueless hack who should be ignored. None of them are hearing the "amp" they are hearing different systems in different rooms at the mercy of any other piece of kit in the chain.

    Consider that if we buy into the notion that some items have more resolution - say speakers. A truly good speaker that is highly resolving you could bring home and be stunned at how SUCKY they sound. So many often (very wrongly) conclude that the speakers must suck. Umm no. Those speaker for the first time may have cleaned the smog on the windows and is telling you what your system truly sounds like. If your windows are muddy and the sun is shining in it doesn't bother you - if you clean those windows the sunlight comes in and blinds you! Oh darn I hate clean windows (Ie the good speakers suck). The good speakers that tell you why CLass D is horrible or SS is horrible or $50 amps are horrible because the speakers are GOOD. The ones that make you think $50 amps are good or using a discman as your CD player is good is the issue. You put the elite gear on the elite speakers and you pick your jaw up off the floor.

    McIntosh is no slouch - they have terrific tube amplifiers - now they may not be to your taste - I prefer SET amplifiers over push pull amplifiers so McIntosh doesn't really make stuff that I would buy (but then neither does Rogue Audio). I find McIntosh to be more stereotypical "valvey" sounding - warmer and fatter and I find Rogue more SS sounding - leaner in the bass - as I described above. But as for which is objectively better - umm no. I like each for what they can bring to the table. If I had to absolutely choose - I'd lean McIntosh because I think I can get more out of the MC 275 than I could out of the Rogue Audio Gear with those really awesome PSVANE Grey bottle output tubes.

    I understand why the dealer made the Bose remark - because he probably feels people buy them for the blue meters (looks) and that they're often bought by less knowledgeable audiophiles - but it's actually not a fair statement because McIntosh was well liked back in the day because they were bomb proof and their look is their look. At least they have STYLE which most stuff seriously lacks or changes every 3-4 years because they found some cheaper cost to the bottom nation to make the casework. If you like the sound of McIntosh - IMO you win - because you get great build and there are very few affordable tube amps with the style of the MC 275! I wish my AN OTO looked like an MC275 I can tell you that!
     
  10. Clay B

    Clay B Forum Resident

    Richard

    Excellent post. Balanced and informative.
     
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  11. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    Does the MC275 VI have chassis mounted tube sockets?
     
  12. Clay B

    Clay B Forum Resident

    Coopmv

    Seeing your question and being interested in this amp myself, I did a google search and then hit "images". There is picture of the internal circuitry from under the amp. You can see where the tube sockets are soldered to the circuit board which in turn is secured to the chassis by what looks like at least 8 machine screws.
     
  13. gotj1

    gotj1 New Member

    That's weird, I thought BOSE was an acronym for Buy Other Sound Equipment
     
  14. KT88

    KT88 Senior Member

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    Thanks Bill.

    I am actually more impressed with the internal layout of the Cronus/Atlas Magnum than the Mc275. But is this the layout for the original MC275?
     
  16. beowulf

    beowulf Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chula Vista, CA
    No that's a later model ... the original is point to point.
    [​IMG]
     
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  17. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    Here is the latest MC275 VI and there are really quite a number of tubes but somehow the PC board posted above does not appear to have as many sockets ... :confused:

    [​IMG]
     
  18. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    eagerly awaiting a comparison - creek vs rogue cm ii
     
  19. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    I see 7 small and 4 power tubes across the board....
     
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  20. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    There should be 7 smaller sockets in a straight line but I have trouble finding them on the board. I do see the sockets for the 4 output tubes in a straight line on the board ...
     
  21. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    They're in front of the brown wiring board all 7 are there
     
  22. theron d

    theron d Forum Resident

    Location:
    Baltimore MD
    Id put all my money on Rogue Cronus Magnum ii
     
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  23. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    I want to pit both of them against these monoblocks for $2-$3500 and see what happens. If we're going to talk about parts quality

    [​IMG]

    ANK Audiokits - EL34 Triple C-Core Pentode Monoblocks Tube Amplifier ยป

    The McIntosh is so much sexier though. Still it's tough to beat a kit when doing the ole bang for the best parts discussions. $2200 for EL 34 monoblocks +10% for them to build it for you is pretty enticing. Even against their own manufactured units.

    PS Beowulf -

    Wow that is some kind of difference between the original and the VI - I understand why the guys in Hong Kong and South Korea salivate over the original models. You definitely want to look under the hood. It's like those Mustangs that had four cylinder versions and you think WTF would you do with that? If you're going to do it do it properly - you'll be happier in the long run. And people worry about costs - the same people who will spend 5 seconds to say yes to adding air conditioning to their $20,000 car that will probably fall apart in 6 years - but agonize over spending $2500 versus $2000 on an amp that will last 30 years.

    The good thing about either McIntosh or Rogue is they have a big enough name that they can be sold off fairly easily if you decide the amp is not for you. The downside of the kit above is that - well - good luck selling a kit. You need to know it's right for you. Having said that - it will probably be as good as any EL34 based amplifier is going to be.

    I would also add that Audio Space and Melody Audio and Prima Luna and Line Magnetic should all be given a look here as well. There are plenty of nice sounding tube amps out there these days.
     
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  24. Guy Gadbois

    Guy Gadbois Chief Inspector Thread Starter

    I just really didn't like the Rogue sound. The vocals sounded kind of canned to me. I like to be able to hear the texture of the voice, and the Rogue didn't do it for me. The Creek has a cleaner sound
     
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  25. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    I presume the Creek amp is not made in the UK ...
     
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