Rogue Pharoah Integrated no longer pleasing.

So the Cary Audio online store has the CAD-120S MKII on sale for $3,597.00 (originally $5995.00), though I am very hesitant to pull the trigger given the unsavory comments the company has received for its customer service/support after its founder retired a few years ago ...



CAD-120S MKII - Vacuum Tube - Amplifiers - Shop Now


CARY -- WHERE ARE THE CHECKS AND BALANCES? | Audiogon Discussion Forum

 

That's why they are no longer on my radar. There are too many people with too many bad experiences.

 

They reminded me of Carver Corp after it forced out Bob Carver. Ditto for Sunfire and Krell, though Audio Research seems to have fared better ...

 

Couple of things to note here in regards to Cary.... The linked thread from A-gon is about 4 and half years old from the last post (so it's been quite a while). In reading the thread, there were just as many positive experiences as negative (and some the negative items were questionable at best....complaining about return shipping charges is a bit of stretch really).

I'm not by any means stating that Cary has not had issues in the past with service, as there were certainly some valid concerns. But Cary did make some changes to their service side, and in my dealings with them over the past couple of years (versus when I first started working with them) has been extremely positive. I just 2 weeks ago had a customer with a remote control issue on his SLI80....Cary had the issue diagnosed and repaired/shipped back in LESS then 1 weeks time.

With all that said, their Black Friday prices are really, really good and that's a fantastic deal on the 120s amp (which is a good piece of gear). I'm working a deal on one right now under this special pricing for a good customer of mine.

 

I have trouble with these sales prices - these dealers still make money on the sales price don't kid yourselves. When stuff is slashed in price it generally indicates that they couldn't sell the thing for the original price so if it is $6,000 down to $3,500 it probably means they couldn't sell any of them at $6,000.

This also applies to websites or stores that continually list something on "sale" that is always on sale. Those luggage shops that have a ridiculous price of $800 for a piece of luggage down to $249 that seem to be on sale all year. I believe back int he day that sort of thing was illegal but then these days who is checking?

Even close-out sales or last year's model sales are a bit suspect. Many big stores will just sell the stock to some other company or move to another location. And last year's model should be sold cheaper since the new model is often the same or very close in price.

High quality gear doesn't go on sale - it doesn't need to.

 

In the case of CAD-120S MKII, a reduction from $5995.00 to $3,597.00 is a mind-boggling price cut. I have periodically seen the same price reduction before Black Friday/Cyber Monday this year. My local Mac dealer has offered a 10% discount on MC 275 VI but he made it clear he wanted me to be his long-term customer ...

 

I agree, but there are some exceptions. Now, my experiences have never dealt with uber high quality audio gear, but there is reasonably priced gear, such as your KingKo EL84 amp (that I want to get).

But, often companies just need to get a few more sales on their financial statement's. Polk Audio is a good one for that. Maybe, not the best audio equipment in the world, but some good stuff, for the prices that they charge. And then they will hold a 50% off sale and that is a hard one to beat.

They just finished a half off sale on their flagship LSiM series. I bought a pair of their 707's a couple of years back, during a similar sale. $4k speakers for $2k. There is nothing that I know of in the $2k range that can compare with their sound.

Sometimes, a manufacturer has an idea, they build that product and the product is nice, but it didn't work in the marketplace. I have a set of Boston Acoustics "flagship" speakers that were $2,500/pr. speakers, for half price. (It get's better!) They were discontinued and they are in liquidation for $800/pr. I have a Cary tube pre-amp that was another one of those failures, that I bought at liquidation for $750.

You are right, good products shouldn't have to be put on sale. The president of Emotiva announced that they would no longer be putting any of their products on sale. Because, it would be raising the prices, on their other customers.

I think that that is a good business decision. (but I did get one of their 1st generation XPA-2 amplifiers for $690 at a 15% off sale)

 

But unlike Cary, which makes its gears in NC, aren't all Emotiva's gears Chinese-made and that is why they can sell them at such cut-rate prices?

 

To me it just means the initial asking prices were too high to begin with - they're trying to make the biggest buck they can. If you bought the Polks at $3500 and next year they're on sale for $2,000 how does that make you feel - for one the most you will sell them for is $1200 - so in a year you lost $2300 on your pride and joy. $4000 is a pretty premium priced loudspeaker and you can do a lot better for $4k.

Some outfits undercut their dealers. Not too smart as the dealers then drop the lines. Other makers go to big box outlets while also selling at high end dealers - the latter can't compete so they dropped those brands (that is what happened to Totem and JBL). So those makers went to big box chains like A&B Sound in Canada or BestBuy. Problem is when A&B sound folded those makers tried to go back to the high end dealers who mostly said take a hike. Those brands could not sell against QUALITY competition that is why they are in Best Buy and the like because in those dreadful outlets you largely buy based on looks and boom factor for car explosiveness. Then those big box chains eventually demand lower prices so the manufacturer has to move to China or cut corners.

The sale price is the "real" price.

Yes there is reasonably priced gear that sounds good but that wasn't really the point. The KingKo remember is only a good price because there is no dealer or importer. If this was imported into the US and then had a dealer the price wouldn't be $800 - it would be $2,000 - $2400. Plus King has no marketing expenses - no catalogs, no website just him having his product built and sold by him direct worldwide. Plus he only makes one product.

Lastly, not dumping on Polk or the like - they can have $4k down to $2k as they wish - but IME the sound of most items at their sales' prices are about right. But then of course we have our subjective tastes and value things differently - I am not a fan of tall mutli-way slim line loudspeakers. I have liked a few but they cost a lot of money (usually too much).

 

When reviewers claim a piece can compete with others at 5x or 10x the price, and then the giant slayer goes on sale for 30 or 50% off, what does one make of that?

 

When reviewers say that what specifically are they talking about?

That's the problem with making those claims. Reviewer or not. And were the systems fairly compared.

 

Yes they were manufactured in China. But, their new amplifier's are being produces in the US.

 

If the new amps are being produced in the US, surely the prices need to be raised and people would be willing to pay up ...

 

Speakers, amps, dacs, analog...take your pic. It seems I come across such claims more often than not.

I've owned a couple components that IMO, punched well above their weight prior to a 50% price slash, Epos Epics for example. In contrast, I've auditioned components that I feel are absurdly overhyped, even with a discount, like Golden Ear speakers. KEF is now selling LS50s at $999, 2/3 off original MSRP. Should early buyers of those speakers feel shafted, especially considering some prefer the $499 Wharfedale Dentons?

My experiences have lead me to believe that price, discount or not, is about as useful a gauge of sound quality as pro reviews, spec sheets, or fan-boy claims.

 

While Polk speaker's are not in the same league as the true audiophile speakers, they have economics of scale working for them. So they can produce a decent sounding speaker, at a good value.

Are the MSiM707's worth $2k/pr? That is a good question. Someone would have to have access to their sales records to see if they are really selling them for $4k. I would not be in the market for them at $4k/pr., but at $2k/pr., they are a real fine speaker for the money. I don't know any other speakers that I might buy at that price point that would best them.

When products are discontinued and end up in liquidation, there are some good prices to be had, like with the Boston Acoustics M-Series line. The M350's being liquidated at less than 1/3rd their original retail pricing.

But, as you say, there are some products which always seem to be on sale, which does make their sale price, the real price.

 

Perhaps but you yourself have stated in a recent thread how your Yamaha A-S501 competes with other manufacturers' offerings costing 4-5x as much.

I haven't read through the whole thread. What was the conclusion? Were you able to address the unpleasantness you were experiencing with the Rogue after all?

 

I bought all my equipment based on reviews and when it was possible, to audition the equipment, and I've rarely ever been disappointed. There are several 'pro reviewers' I trust and it was because of their their opinions that I bought several pieces of equipment that I think are awesome including the Pharaoh which sounds amazing in my system. I tend to believe reviewers who have auditioned many many components over the years rather than someone like myself who has heard relatively few components over an extended period of time and not just a short audition at a store.

FWIW I 're-auditioned' the GoldenEar Tritons 1 and 2 with a new outlook on how loudspeakers should sound and I think they sounded excellent as compared to the 'over-sensationalized' speakers many of us have been accustomed/brainwashed into believing what sounds great. The night before the audition I went to the Phoenix symphony and listened to how various acoustic instruments sound and the GEs were pretty close, very close to what I heard the night before, closer than the big B&Ws I heard which I thought were too bright and too detailed as a consequence. I do believe the GEs are worth the money being charged considering just how expensive audio equipment is nowadays.

YMMV

 

I think you misunderstood my point with the price comment. I'm saying that price, discount or otherwise is not always a good indicator of performance.

Yes, I addressed the unpleasantness by moving it on to a new home.

 

I've tried giving GEs a chance multiple times at a local dealer. The Triton 5s were driven with Integra and Marantz AVRs, the Triton 1s driven by McIntosh SS. Maybe it had something to do with the rooms, but they had ear piercing, narrow dispersion treble and little bass for their size. Revel, B&W, Paradigm, MA, and even Klipsch floor standers in the same rooms were warmer and better balanced. When I read comments like "over-sensationalized," and "brainwashed," I always think back to GEs. Guess we all hear things differently.

As for the Pharaoh, I can at least understand why some enjoy its sound.

 

Since you were in NY for years, you probably know Hans Fantel, who used to write about audio for NYT ...

 

Never heard the 5s just the 1s and 2s but I have little reason not to believe you as I saw many for sale. The GEs are rather subdued in their sound compared to many other brands as were the DefTechs which were voiced by the same guy.

 

No, but I knew many other music writers.

 

From the opinions I've encountered, it seems that GEs fall into the category of "polarizing" speakers. The 1s were so bright to my ears that I could barely sit through more than a couple quality recorded tracks. I suppose it's totally plausible that it was simply their placement and/or a lack of break-in.

Looking at your profile, it seems we have similar tastes in some regard. Though Maggie's and Rogue are not my favorites, both are very good overall and I can completely understand why they have their fans. I enjoyed the Rogue Pharoah and Cronus amps for what they do well. Both are highly transparent with great power and soundstage. I'm also a fan of Revel despite not liking them at first. Right now, I've got 4 pairs of speakers and two systems. Some days, any one of these pairs won't sound all that great. The next day, they'll sound sublime. I find that my state of energy and mood highly affects what I hear, as I imagine it does for many others. For this reason, I learned to not critique a component after a single audition. This is why I tried to give GE multiple opportunities.

Anyway, before getting on that tangent, my intent was to say that I think value is highly subjective. For someone who finds a Cary amp to be exactly what they've been searching for, they might not worry much about the price, discounted or otherwise, especially if they have money to burn. IME, there's usually one way or another to facilitate a low-risk in home audition.

I think coopmv should try to do just that with the Cary amp.