I just bought the HD Tracks 1970-1978 collection, and goddamn are they bright. The end of Cornucopia on Vol. 4 peeled the paint off my walls.
Quick question: Are the individual Warner Brothers CDs for Sabbath in the USA still the original WB mastering, or have they been replaced with the Black Box remasterings?
How could needledrops be better than digital representations (CD, SACD, lossless file) professionally mastered from the analog source tapes?
Well, simply if the mastering for the vinyl was done better and/or the tapes were in better condition (or different tapes were used). And then it comes down to listening preference also. I often prefer a warmer sounding mastering, and others might like the mastering which has more detail. But for Black Sabbath, no single digital release so far has been as good as the very best vinyl pressings (usually 1st UK Vertigo pressings). And this is not just my opinion, but pretty much everbody's opinion after they heard the needledrops.
I don't know how, but I can vouch for what Roland is saying having a Boston S/T vinyl-drop that no CD has ever come close to.
True, and also my opinion after finally having the opportunity to listen to 1st UK Vertigo vinyl pressings of the S/T album and Paranoid .
Does anybody know if there are Creative Sounds editions of Sabotage and Sabbath Bloody Sabbath that feature the same masterings as the 1986 Castle CDs? Also, has anybody heard the newest Rhino Flashback Seventh Star CD? http://www.amazon.com/Seventh-Star-...78&sr=1-1&keywords=black+sabbath+seventh+star
The Creative Sounds CDs all have a unique mastering. All of them. Some are closer to the '86 Castles than others, but none are identical.
Interesting that someone did additional mastering work on my Israeli Creative Sounds Paranoid and Creative Sounds Children of the Grave (Vol. 4), yet the missing pre-emphasis flags remain missing on the Creative Sounds. I would have suspected that they would be clones because of the missing, yet needed, flags. I don't have any 1986 Castles to compare to, but everything seems fine when I burn with flags set.
I thought the Creative Sounds version of Master Of Reality canceled out with the 1986 Castle if you just switch the pre-emphasis flags?
Maybe I'm confused about the 1986 Castle CDs. I seem to remember reading that some had preemphasis incorrectly set. Maybe it's just the Creative Sounds CDs that have the preemphasis wrong. EDIT: Looking at post #406 from the first part of this thread, Jeff Carney stated that the 1986 Castle CDs have preemphasis, but EAC doesn't always recognize it.
No, the Creative Sounds for MoR is actually right. The 1986 Castle is wrong. AFAIK, MoR is the only 1986 Castle said to have been set wrong. The other one speculated to be wrong is the Creative Sounds s/t, which does indeed sound better if you switch it, IMO.
Loved those Creative Sound discs (warts 'n' all). They were the Sabbath CD's I had for years. Interesting how they switched the last two tracks on each album. I've still got those in storage somewhere. While the WB and Deluxe edition discs stay close to home.
No. I saw this too, so I got the two (?) versions of the CS MoR, and they both were different than the '86 Castle, PE flag or not. To be honest, I don't know how many CS discs there are. There are 600x and 600x-2. But then some discs were made in the US, and some in WG. I didn't know about any Israeli discs. When I looked for these, I only concentrated on 600x and 600x-2, but not where they came from. In general, I don't think much of the CS discs. Most of them have tape transfer problems.
I'm actually sorry to bring this up but it's bugged me for a while and I could think of no better place to turn. I own both the SHM and standard US/UK release of the Heaven and Hell deluxe from '09/'10. Both the former myself and received the latter as a gift. When I was playing the crap out of Heaven and Hell a few years ago, I was listening solely to the Japanese release - I'm not even sure I opened the other one until around 2012. A few nights ago, I was compelled to play the US CD pressing of the deluxe, was like, "this sounds good" and then put it back. Last night, having the Sabbath bug for about the 5 millionth time in my life, I pulled out the SHM disc and played that one. And it struck me that it didn't sound quite like the US deluxe. So I did a bit of an AB and it sounds to me like the are some differences between the US and SHM deluxe discs. Could just be some slight EQ differences but I'm pretty sure I'm hearing different things (with the SHM sounding better to me overall). But maybe this is all just placebo and I'm trying to find a reason to believe the Sabbath CD I paid $45 for sounds better than the one I got for nothing. Tell me, am I going insane?
according to the test I did I'm pretty sure that those two CDs would cancel out. On my system though, most SHM CDs seem to create a little bit of smiley EQ on the actual playback. Just a hair and hardly noticeable, but I've even tested this by running my analog outs into my PC and recording one and the very tiny smiley curve was there. I'm guessing that the SHM surface reacts differently on different players. In my case, if anything I have found the SHM discs to sound slightly worse than their regular CD counterparts when all else is equal. It seems like a little midrange is lost but this is so minor according to the test I did that I might just be hearing things. Anyway, what you are hearing may just be the result of how the SHM sounds on your system. I bet if you rip them and look at them, they will look exactly the same, as I don't believe Universal Jpn made any adjustments on that '09 SHM from the Andy Pearce mastering.
thank you for your response, and you may very well be right. and I've definitely noticed the slight smiley EQ on SHM's in the past. I only have access to Audacity at work...do you know if it's possible to overlap the two waveforms in Audacity to see if the files cancel each other out?
Not sure. Sorry. But even if you just open "Neon Knights" and compare the peaks, it should be apparent if they are the same. Any actual EQ moves would alter the peaks enough so that they wouldn't look identical.
Thanks to Roland for the informative post. I recently spent about a month listening to all the different versions of the Sabbath CDs. I looked at all the waveforms in Goldwave as well, as I have a bit of experience doing some vinyl rips. Below are my recommendations IMHO. First off, the Black Box is one of the most overly compressed botch jobs of an iconic bands catalog, second only to the Judas Priest 2001 remasters, which are simply the worst remastered CDs I have ever heard. Secondly, the 1996 Castle versions are almost as painful. Overly compressed, with a icepick in the ear high end. The waveforms indicate as well as my ears that they are way too loud. For the most part the original WB discs are not very good, although they are not compressed. Here is my breakdown of the versions I prefer. Keep in mind this is subjective and not authoritative by any means. Black Sabbath - I like the Vertigo Japanese 23PD-33. Although I think the 33PD is closer to the original intent of the vinyl, I dislike the boomy bass. I actually like the EQ job on this, others may disagree. I pulled Wicked World from the 2009 remaster, and burned a CDR. I also like the 2009 mix of Evil Woman as opposed to the version on the 23PD-33. I didn't want to track down the Creative Sounds version Roland recommended, just too much hassle. I find the 2009 Deluxe version to be very bloated and bassy sounding, as well as just too loud. Paranoid - Again I prefer the Vertigo Japanese 23PD-33. Again, although I think the 33PD is closer to the original intent of the vinyl, I dislike the boomy bass. I actually like the EQ job on this, others may disagree. I do not like the Deluxe version. It does not sound like the vinyl I remember so well. Master Of Reality - I like the 2009 remaster. I have not heard the SHM. This is pretty much the way I remember the album. Andy Pearce did a nice job on this. The 86 Castle, and the Vertigo 23PD pale in comparison. Volume 4 - I'll go with the 2009 Remaster on this one too. Another really great job by Andy Pearce. One complaint: Laguna Sunrise is extremely louder than it should to be. I pulled this one into Goldwave and decreased the volume by 50 percent and it matched up with the volume levels of the other songs pretty well. Otherwise it sounds great. If there is a SHM of this I have not heard it. Again, the 86 Castle, and the Vertigo 23PD pale in comparison. Sabbath Bloody Sabbath - This was a tricky one. I prefer the Japanese Vertigo 23PD. The original 86 Castle is a close runner up, but I find the high end to be too brittle. I did remove the pre-emphasis when I burned the CD. I find the 23PD too be much warmer sounding. The Deluxe version is too loud, and looking at the waveforms, the volume levels fluctuate too much from song to song. Sabotage - The 2009 Andy Pearce remaster wins the day. Original WB is a close second, but like mentioned by other posters, there are source tape problems. Technical Ecstasy - It's a real shame as I always liked this record a lot. There really is not a great sounding version of this on CD. Like Roland, I prefer the 23PD. I believe he said it is identical to the original WB. The 2009 Deluxe version is awful. Never Say Die - I like the Vertigo Japanese PHCR-2053 version. It may be the same as the Original WB. I am not sure. The deluxe version is awful. The Vertigo Japanese PHCR-2053 to my ears sounds very good and quite crankable. Live At Last - I never cared about this album. I always prefered the studio albums. Heaven And Hell - The 2009 Deluxe remaster is excellent. All that fatiguing glare is gone in the higher frequencies. Great looking waveform. All other versions are greatly inferior. Mob Rules - Original first US WB pressing as Roland recommended. Wow, was he right about this one. This is easily one of the best sounding hard rock CDs in this genre, period. The Deluxe version is lifeless, with no high end. All other versions don't stack up. Live Evil - Never cared about this record. When Dio sings the Ozzy material it's almost comical. Born Again - 2009 Deluxe remaster. This album is so bad it's good in a Spinal Tap kind of way. All the records after this are not really Sabbath albums until Dehumanizer. I never cared for them much. I do like the Ray Gillian version of The Eternal Idol however. Dehumanizer - 2009 Deluxe remaster. Much thanks to Roland for the info. I hope others weigh in as well. It's always interesting to hear someone else's take on these types of issues. Cheers! Rob H
Rob, interesting input. Not sure if I gave the 23PD's for the first two Albums ever a real proper comparison. Based on you assessment, I would usually give them another try, but nowadays I listen to Black Sabbath needledrops (at least for the early albums) via my HDD.
You should try the German Vertigo for both Sabbath Bloody Sabbath ,and Technical Ecstasy. They're just smokin'. Personally I like the midrangey 2009 Sabbath Bloody Sabbath by Pearce, I'm a guitar player, so I tend to lean towards that thick, fat eq where the guitars reign. But if you find it too muddy (as some people here do), the German Vertigo is the way to go. German Technical Ecstasy is by far the best sounding, no contest - no other version comes close. As for Sabotage, my personal favorite is the Japanese TECP-Teichiku cd. As close to the vinyl sound as possible.
