I own all three of these so no need for samples but maybe others will find them helpful. I didn't mean to be rude, but you recommended that CD very highly and I was only trying to offer an alternate viewpoint for some who may want some balance. And I don't think many will agree with you that the Warner CD is "muffled." Most complain that it is too bright. It's quite open and would sound better if it were a little more muffled, IMO. I'm sure if someone uses the UK LP as a base and shows an EQ graph, the WG Vertigo CD will look about like this:
I can't understand why anyone (including professional mastering engineers) like smiley-eq. I have hated it since I was a little kid. I love midrange!
I have a 6006 and a 6006-2 for the debut, and they are the same. But there are different versions of each too. US and WG, I think. I'd have to dig up exactly what I have. I also have the 600x and 600x-2 for MOR, and they are slightly different.
If you go to the effort of posting your own opinions of discs, that leaves you open to critique when others don't agree. And especially when they have valid reasons for their opinions.
Add me to those who don't like the WG Vertigo for TE. I find the US WB much more crankible, smooth, and balanced. This is a disc that invites me to turn it up loud. Here is the freq spectrum comparison between the Vertigo and the US WB: As you can see, for the first track, the Vertigo is indeed smiley faced EQ'ed vs the US WB, with both boosted lows and highs, in comparison. For track 1 of side 2 , the Vertigo has boosted highs vs the US WB. I also have a needle drop of the first UK lp for TE, and the US WB is a lot closer. Jeff Carney said a long time ago: Hans Brethouwer = bad Gert Van Hoyen = good And I have never found that not to be true.
Thanks Tim for the clarification. So basically my preference is Paranoid, Tech Ec, Never Say Die - Original WB mastering. S/T, SBS- Japan 23DP unique mastering. All the rest deluxe versions, except Mob Rules original US WB first pressing. I did hear the tape drag on SBS title track. I can overlook that only because that is not really one of my fav Sab tracks. Which of these discs that I prefer would you recommend different versions of?
Correction to Sabotage...The 86 Castle is the version with the source tape problems, not the original WB. Thanks to all for your kind input and consideration. I must say I was surprised to learn that for the ST and Paranoid, the consensus seems to be the 23PD is the same as the original WB. I took a bit of heat for going with those versions! I know Paranoid has some tape issues on War Pigs but I still like the sound of this on my system cranked up. I must say I always felt Rat Salad into the Fairies Wear Boots intro remains one of the best transitions in rock music. Please feel free to provide more critique and insight into this great bands catalog. Cheers again!
I recently got the SHM of Sabbath Bloody Sabbath. I have now heard these versions: 1.. Japan 23 PD (a unique master different from the original WB) - nice bottom and highs, lacking mids, tape drag during title track 2. 2009 Deluxe - too loud, too heavy on the mids 3. Castle 86 - Seems to be the preferred version by many, nice and wide open sound stage, but I find the highs to be "tinny' sounding 4. Castle 96 - Awful 5. Black Box version - Worse than awful 6. SHM SACD Don't have the original WB to compare to. My guess is it's not a contender based on the previous posts. I must say IMHO the SHM SACD to my ears is best sounding version. It has the most balanced mix of all the versions. I will probably be amending my preferred versions for the S/T and Paranoid. Tim is right, they are much too bright sounding. I've been listening to the 33PD of Paranoid. I find myself liking the mixes for all the tracks except Paranoid and Iron Man. The bass really isn't boomy as I had originally thought. I'll be getting the SHM versions of Paranoid and the S/T album soon. I hope these turn out to be the go-to versions for me. I also tracked down a copy of the Creative Sounds 6006 of the S/T for comparison. Should be arriving soon. My other picks I won't be revising. Roland nailed them down long before me. Master Of Reality - I like the 2009 remaster. I have not heard the SHM SACD. Roland prefers it. Volume 4 - 2009 Remaster. One complaint: Laguna Sunrise is extremely louder than it should to be. I pulled this one into Goldwave and decreased the volume by 50 percent and it matched up with the volume levels of the other songs pretty well. Otherwise it sounds great. I have not heard the SHM SACD. Sabotage - The 2009 Andy Pearce remaster wins the day. Original WB is a close second. Technical Ecstasy - It's a real shame as I always liked this record a lot. There really is not a good sounding version of this on CD. Like Roland, I prefer the 23PD. I believe he said it is identical to the original WB. The 2009 Deluxe version is awful. Never Say Die - I like the Vertigo Japanese PHCR-2053 version. It appears from the other posts to be the same as the Original WB. The Deluxe version is awful. The Vertigo Japanese PHCR-2053 to my ears sounds very good and quite crankable. Live At Last - I never cared about this album. I always preferred the studio albums. Heaven And Hell - The 2009 Deluxe remaster is excellent. All that fatiguing glare is gone in the higher frequencies. Great looking waveform. All other versions are greatly inferior. I have not heard the SHM SACD. Mob Rules - Original first US WB pressing as Roland recommended. Wow, was he right about this one. This is easily one of the best sounding hard rock CDs from this time period. The Deluxe version is lifeless, with no high end. All other versions don't stack up. Live Evil - Never cared about this record. When Dio sings the Ozzy material it's almost comical. Born Again - 2009 Deluxe remaster. Gotta love Trashed. All the records after this are not really Sabbath albums until Dehumanizer. I never cared for them much. Dehumanizer - 2009 Deluxe remaster. IS THERE A NON COMPRESSED DIGITAL VERSION OF 13 WITH A DR VALUE HIGHER THAN A 5? (I KNOW THE VINYL IS A DR 10)
Redhat, if the highs are "tinny" on the '86 Castle of SBS, I suspect that your player is not decoding Pre-Emphasis, which that CD has. PE not being decoded results in just what you describe. Having said this, the SHM-SACD is absolutely perfect, so I wouldn't worry about it except that it could effect the sound of other CDs you have or might acquire which have PE. All of the Sabbath '86 Castles have it. Some other comments: I wouldn't worry too much about the SHM-SACD for MoR. It is a little better, but not by much. The Deluxe is outstanding. The Vol. 4 SHM-SACD is amazing. But so is the '86 Castle. Remember that the Creative Sounds 6006 of the S/T will not sound right unless you switch the PE flag, manually. The SHM-SACD of Heaven and Hell is horribly bright. The Deluxe blows it away. Paranoid SHM-SACD is also too bright as discussed here in many threads, ad nauseam.
Thanks for the input Tim. I have a plugin loaded in Foobar that I have turned on for DE-Emphasis. I checked the peak values and compared them before and after, and they are indeed lower, buy only very slightly. I used it when I converted FLAC to WAV. I'm fairly certain I am doing it correctly, however if there is another way please let me know so I can be sure. I now the cue sheets have a "PRE" line in each of the song "blocks", is that what you mean by setting the PE Flag manually? Please explain if not too complicated.. In the meantime I will search google. Would you say the SHM is better for Volume 4 than the Deluxe? I'll stick with the Deluxe for MOR and Heaven and Hell, as I am quite satisfied with both. I am soon to be receiving Paranoid SHM, so I'll verify it's brightness. I have heard the same about the SHM of the first album, but I will soon be giving that a listen as well. I hope at least that one works for me. Otherwise I will be making the hybrid CD-R combining 33PD and the Creative Sounds 6006.
I use Adobe Audition for changing a PE flag so I can't say about Foobar. What you're describing sounds about right. Someone else will probably chime in. As far as "SHM" we should be careful to cite that we are only talking about SHM-SACD. Not earlier SHM issues which were always just sourced from the Sanctuary digital sources. And yes, Vol. 4 on SHM-SACD beats the Deluxe pretty handily, from what I recall. Side 2 of the Deluxe was much brighter than Side 1, which was talked about here by some. The SHM-SACD is a 1/1 transfer of the UK analog master and is more balanced, IMO.
Well, in 2009, Japanese Universal issued the catalog on SHM and the albums that were already completed by Pearce were used but that was only the first three albums, iirc. The rest were still using the same old Castle remasters but tweaked by a Japanese engineer whose name escapes me. These were awful. I think it was Vol. 4 through NSD. Then the Dio-era stuff came out on SHM and used the Pearce remasters Those SHM which were still using the Castle remasters and tweaked by the Japanese engineer had the credit inside and were compressed garbage. In 2010 I think all Japanese SHM converted over to Pearce remasters except SHM-SACD which is different program entirely.
All the shm-cd (Universal Music Japan) released on December 21, 2011 had the european master made by Andy Pearce. I do not seem to be a "compressed garbage" ...By the way, have you heard all these shm-cd to which I refer ? I find that 2009 Santuary/Vertigo remaster ( 2009 ) are more compressed (and these CDs have an excellent sound) I have a large collection of cds/Lps from Black Sabbath in different versions and masters (I have a long time in this) and I can say that these shm-cds are perhaps the best that is recently published on cd (at least since 2000 when were reissued the remasters of Castel Music made by Ray Staff) I've taken a good time reading these discussions;almost a month (with all these technical aspects of audio, compression, drops, balance, ups and downs ... etc) but so far no one had commented about these shm-cds and even less than some of them are "compressed garbage "
Tim, I have the SHM-SACD's of Paranoid and SBS. SBS is perfect as you said. Paranoid is too heavy on the highs and a fatiguing listen. I am now fully onboard with the 33PD of Paranoid as the preferred version. Can't believe I was initially liking the 23PD. That was one of the first noncompressed Sabbath CD's I heard so I guess I was in shock with the difference initially. My biggest question of all is why is it so difficult for an engineer to master this classic correctly. I'll settle for the 33PD for now but is is far from ideal. I am going to get Vol. 4 and MOR on SHM SACD too, as I love the increased DR and the idea of a non tweaked flat transfer. Also will try ST on SHM SACD too. Some are saying it's too bright like Paranoid. Have you heard it?
Please read what I wrote. The 2009 SHM had the first three albums using Andy Pearce, but Vol. 4 through NSD using old Castle remaster with tweaking. The latter (Vol. 4 through NSD) were compressed garbage with tweaking by Hitoshi Takiguchi (found his name). These 2009 SHM of Ozzy-era except those using Pearce (first 3 albums) are terrible. As I believe I said, from 2010 onward, all SHM are using Andy Pearce (except SHM-SACD which are from actual tapes). These SHM are not compressed garbage except TE and NSD, as per many posts about Pearce 'Deluxe' remasters here.
As far as Paranoid, I understand completely. That old Warner mastering is very dynamic so even with its tape flaws and treble boosting, it sounds better than compressed masterings. FWIW, the Japan 33PD sounds almost identical to the original UK Vertigo LP. I have heard both and would have trouble telling them apart in terms of frequency balance. I believe this is how the album was originally intended to sound. The S/T SHM-SACD is a bit bright, but I think this album was always that way even on many vinyl pressings. It has been reported here that the 1986 Castle of the S/T seems to have a wider stereo image. I have been meaning to check this. It is also less bright when PE is correctly decoded.
