Roland's favorite CD versions of Black Sabbath albums

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by rjstauber, Jun 8, 2007.

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  1. TMan

    TMan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I was going to put it as, you may be able to tell that masterings are different from each other but you probably won't be able to hear what makes the higher quality ones superior.
     
  2. rjstauber

    rjstauber Senior Member Thread Starter

    Mine says only 6006 on the CD and artwork, no -1 or -2.

    It says Made in USA on the disc itself.

    Matrix: INTER SERVICE PRESSE DIGIP 6006

    The songs are indexed funnily. "Wasp/Behind the Wall/Basically/N.I.B." is one track, for example. So is "A Bit of Finger/Sleeping Village/Warning".

    With DE applied, this CD simply sounds stunning.
     
  3. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I don't know about that. I can hear what I need to hear. You guys must be fans of the 86 SBS. You can have it. Maybe I will put mine up for sale on here sometime.
     
  4. kingofstoneage

    kingofstoneage Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    the 2009 version of MOR is the best one!

    don't punish me the 2004 Rhino Remaster is second....:shh:
     
  5. jh901

    jh901 Forum Resident

    Location:
    PARRISH FL USA
    Black Sabbath S/T (Creative Sounds label)

    1) Cat# 6006 on the CD and artwork (no -1 or -2)
    Made in USA on the disc itself. Matrix: INTER SERVICE PRESSE DIGIP 6006

    - The songs are indexed funnily. "Wasp/Behind the Wall/Basically/N.I.B." is one track, for example. So is "A Bit of Finger/Sleeping Village/Warning".
    - Must apply "de-emphasis": CD simply sounds stunning.

    2) Made in Germany, Cat# 6006-2 tray insert with matrix: [] PILZ CD 449805-2 103 []

    - Must apply de-emphasis



    Ok, which does Kevin have? Anyone else!?

    @Holy Diver- keep open mind....and nothing to do with SBS
     
  6. Tank

    Tank New Member

    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    Isn't the 23PD of SBS is the same as the US Warner CD?

    I like the Warner ok and I think I had the 23PD for a while, but the 86 Castle just kills these, IMO. Only the latest remaster by Andy Pearce is in the same league as the original Castle disc on my system.
     
  7. kevin5brown

    kevin5brown Analog or bust.

    I have 6006-2. I had 6006 (no 1), and it didn't sound as good to me as 6006-2. But I also remember it not needing de-emphasis either (whereas 6006-2 does need it). ... But maybe 6006 should have de-emphasis and that's why it didn't sound as good to me as -2 !!
     
  8. jh901

    jh901 Forum Resident

    Location:
    PARRISH FL USA
    I ripped the 2009 Deluxe MOR (Andy Pearce) safely into flac and gave it a "spin" on the Transporter this evening. I wanted to hate it since my bias is firmly against nearly any modern remaster. On the other hand, I wanted it to be great since my current Creative Sounds MOR isn't cutting it. Plus, I should expect common Japan releases such as the 33PD twofers to sell for typical used prices. Sadly, not the case yet.

    Anyhow, my first listen resulted in an end to end grin. Wow. Fantastic! Where was that muddy sound!? Where was the loudness wars signature?! Happy days. I'll come back to it at higher volume soon, but I'm really happy so far. I'm going to send for the Vol. 4 and H&H tonight!
     
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  9. kevin5brown

    kevin5brown Analog or bust.

    OK, I am chuckling over this now. The 6006 and 6006-2 are identical, down to both needing the PE flag set, but not having it set.

    When I had both before, I never checked the EAC numbers. And I must have thought that since they are different masterings :hide:, what's the chance that both would have the PE flag set wrong? So since I had the 6006-2 1st, and I used pre-emphasis with that one, and since EAC didn't spot any PE flags with 6006, it must not have it, so ...

    But in the end I heard the same thing Roland did, that with the PE flag set, it sounds better than without.

    :D
     
  10. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Does anybody else like the Vertigo 830 789-2 of NSD over the WB US?
     
  11. curbach

    curbach Some guy on the internet

    Location:
    The ATX
    I haven't heard the U.S. WB cd, but FWIW I think the Vertigo cd sounds pretty similar to my U.S. WB vinyl. Not a great recording/production in any event.

    (I think I am probably repeating myself from somewhere earlier in this thread. . . :))
     
  12. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Probably, but thanks for the input. Some have said the Vertigo has pumped up bass, but I have never heard it.
     
  13. Tank

    Tank New Member

    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    Oh, it definitely has pumped up bass and treble and lacks the midrange of the vinyl cuts I have heard. You listen to your music on computer, right? I assume that you have a subwoofer?

    I also prefer the Vertigo CD to the Warner, but it has seriously goosed bass on my system.

    There is a great, 2010 gatefold vinyl reissue of NSD on Sanctuary. I think it might even be a flat transfer based on what Andy Pearce said about his treatment of TE (rolled flat) and how everyone wondered why TE and NSD had all that compression on the 2009 CDs when Pearce said he did not do that. Both TE and NSD on the latest vinyl sound great and do not have that compression! They were mastered at Masterpiece but have a different mastering credit than the CD versions. Strange, and definitely worth buying. The LPs were probably cut from digital files but they sound right there with the 1st pressing UK vinyls.
     
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  14. curbach

    curbach Some guy on the internet

    Location:
    The ATX
    I don't think I've never played my vinyl and Vertigo cd back to back for a rigorous comparison. Maybe there is more bass on the Vertigo cd, but I would be surprised if it's a major difference. When I have played one or the other, I've always thought yeah that's how NSD sounds--no revelations either way. I certainly don't think of my vinyl as having much midrange, kind of tinny sounding I'd say. But there are a lot of variables at play for vinyl between different pressings and equipment setups. My copy is a mid 80's reissue, not an original Strawberry cut. Anyway, based on your comments I'll do a direct comparison soon. Maybe I'll have some words to eat :cool:

    I'm curious what Sanctuary put in the gatefold of NSD considering it was not originally issued with a gatefold. I've always liked the artwork for this album, especially the inner sleeve. Makes the music inside that much more disappointing :sigh: :)
     
  15. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Yes. I have a big subwoofer that sits on the floor. Should I just keep the WB NSD then?
     
  16. Tank

    Tank New Member

    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    Inside the gatefold are the liner notes that are in the CD version, plus pictures, singles from the time, etc. I haven't checked but probably stuff that is all in the CD version. The difference is the vinyl sounds totally different to the crappy CD. It is right there with the original English vinyl release!

    I have a couple of other pressings on vinyl, and none of them have as much bottom end as the Vertigo CD. And I am not sure any other CD I have heard does either.

    I do think the Vertigo CD might be the least of the evils when talking about CD versions, but whatever midrange the album had, you can hear it sucked out on the Vertigo. All the Ozzy era Vertigo CDs sound that way, as I think others have pointed out, but NSD seems better than the other Vertigo CDs I have heard of the 70's era.
     
  17. Tank

    Tank New Member

    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    I just said I prefer the Vertigo CD to the WB, but either way, I can't answer that for you. That Warner version is really just too trebley for my taste.
     
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  18. kevin5brown

    kevin5brown Analog or bust.

    I think that some people have mentioned the Spectrum? Tank, have you heard the Spectrum vs the Vertigo and US WB?

    The Vertigo doesn't seem to show up on eBay in the US very often. I've been somewhat trying to find one ... But I haven't gotten motivated enough to look on eBay.de ...
     
  19. Tank

    Tank New Member

    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    A friend made me a cd-r of the Spectrum version, but I've never found the actual CD for myself.

    It sounds good, but as I think others have mentioned, maybe slightly compressed? I guess if I had to choose between all of these CDs, I'd just buy the latest Sanctuary g/f vinyl reissue and forget it. :laugh:
     
  20. BIG ED

    BIG ED Forum Resident

    "WSOSFR&R"

    Can't read "all" of this soon too be closed thread!

    What a bout the '94 Castles?
    (compared too the later Sanctuarys as well)

    Have the '80's Castle "WSOSFR&R" CD.
    Any benefit too hearing any other versions?
    BIG thanks.
     
  21. curbach

    curbach Some guy on the internet

    Location:
    The ATX
    So I did a little back to back comparison last night. I played the title track and "Johnny Blade". Yes, the Vertigo cd does in fact have more bass than my vinyl, but it also sounds rolled off in the highs compared to my vinyl and somewhat lacking in presence. I'd still say they sound reasonably similar--there isn't the night and day difference you often get when comparing cd to vinyl, but they do sound different enough that it is easily apparent.

    In my experience, early WB/Atlantic/etc cds tend to be pretty faithful to the vinyl. Unfortunately, that can mean faithful to whatever lp cutting master happened to be around in the mid/late 80's. Since others have reported that the original WB cd seems to be treble boosted, my guess would be it was made from the cutting master used for my lp, a mid 80's watermark label reissue with WW-3/JW-5 matrices and the Winchester rifle. If Tank and others hear the Vertigo cd as treble boosted compared to vinyl, I'd assume my reissue is treble boosted compared to earlier vinyl pressings, perhaps very treble boosted. To my ears the treble on my lp is on the borderline of being too much.
     
  22. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    So would you suggest that the WB NSD is the most faithful to the original LP over the Vertigo, or could be? I hope I said that right.
     
  23. Tank

    Tank New Member

    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    I think all the Warner CDs were EQd. How some people came to believe that they were flat transfers doesn't make much sense to me. While Warner often didn't credit anyone with "mastering" in those days, I don't know that there is much evidence that anything they issued from about 1987 on wasn't mastered by someone.

    I don't really buy the EQd copy tape theory (although that could also be a factor) as the main reason so many of the Warner CDs sound so weird. In my experience, most don't really match Warner vinyl I've heard.

    Back to the Vertigo of NSD, I think all the added bass makes the top end a little harder to hear as it kind of cancels it out. And I think that even with the boosted bass, the Vertigo is closest to the UK vinyl.

    This is probably my least favorite Sabs album with Ozzy, but I like it and have like three vinyl copies that are all similar. That includes the latest Sanctuary LP done at Andy Pearce's studio. I read here that Pearce said they decided to cut TE flat and he couldn't understand why all that compression was on the CD, because it didn't leave his studio that way. Well, the TE reissue LP sounds like it well could have been the flat transfer he thought was to be used. So, if NSD was treated the same or similarly and that ended up on the reissue LP, it says that the tapes sound very close to the original English vinyl, and while the Vertigo CD is the best of the CDs in some ways, I am just trying to explain that it does not sound nearly as balanced and powerful as the vinyl copies I have.
     
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  24. curbach

    curbach Some guy on the internet

    Location:
    The ATX
    I'm not suggesting too much since I haven't actually heard the disc, but my suggestion is that it may be faithful to a trebleboosted cutting master used for an 80's reissue lp. And if you read Barry Diament's posts about his experiences mastering cds for Atlantic, this seems to be a plausible theory. But considering I have not heard any other cd or vinyl versions of NSD, this represents even more uninformed speculation than what I usually post :)
     
  25. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    The last Vertigo NSD CD on eBay went for $40. No one has convinced me it is worth that much over the common WB CD.
     
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