Ronnie James Dio in Black Sabbath

Why go down into the crawl space unless you absolutely have to?

 

How about 3 lads and an Elf ?

 

Black Sabbelf

 

True, I just think they'd gone as far as they could with Ozzy after Sabotage. Melodically, Dio opened up a whole new realm of possibilities, even if the sound of the band didn't change too much, and it only really could last for two records.

 

Iommi is on record that he found Dio's way of creating vocal melodies a lot more interesting than Osbourne's - who basically just modelled the vocal line on the riff. Dio, by contrast, would cut across the riff with the vocal melody. Iommi found this very refreshing and inspiring when working on the H&H album.

 

But let's face it, there are countless Sabbath songs with Ozzy where the vocal melody is not "modeled after" the riff.

He has discussed the difference as you mentioned and clearly working with Dio was a new way of composing and one that he found fascinating.

I think in the end he was probably just trying to explain the difference in a manner which the average music listener might understand.

 

Not sure I'd agree. Whether one loves or hates Technical Ecstasy, they were in all kinds of previously unexplored melodic territory on that album. Same with Never Say Die.

I do think Ozzy was losing interest in their direction and wanted to get back to their core sound, so perhaps in that sense they felt he wasn't able to be fully on board with what they viewed as progress. Ironically, it seems H&H was a bit of a return to form. The ballads, the strings, the synthesizers and so on really took a back seat, and they basically abandoned most of what they'd developed on the prior two albums. I do think "Wishing Well" has a lot in common with "Shock Wave", but other than that it really does feel like H&H was a total departure from where they were, which if I understand correctly is kind of a part of what Ozzy wanted.

 

Big fan of Black Sabbath-Heaven and Hell. The deluxe edition is my favorite. "Lord she's handsome .......LOOK OUT!"

 

buy them you WONT regret it !!!!!!

get born again, quite possibly their heaviest. Ian friggin smokes on vocals !!!

 

Ironically, his own solo album certainly didn't shy away from from synths, synth strings and slower pop ballad etc.

 

True. In some ways it almost seems like Ozzy sort of modeled his solo career after Technical Ecstasy. Maybe not so much Never Say Die.

 

That diminishes the obvious influence Randy had on his sound... he certainly was NOTHING like Toni.

 

Dehumaizer is simply the greatest Sabbath album of them all...

Dio era is the best era of Sabbath.

 

Or Tony.

 

Gillan sounds absolutely unhinged on some of those tracks on Born Again. Yes, Ozzy had his uniqueness and was the original, and Dio had an amazing set of pipes and was Mr. Melody. But it was Ian Gillan who delivered the most evil sounding vocals of any Sabbath album. Some of his shrieks sound like they're coming from the bowels of Hell itself. Holy smokes!

 

Sheesh. Lighten up, it was probably the greatest day in that guys entire life.

Plus, the band seems to be getting a kick out him and it beats the hell out of those normal/robotic meet n' greets.

 

I have always thought that Born Again had some real subversive songs on it.
Songs like Disturbing The Priest and Born Again are in that fine tradition of Ian Gillan challenging religious authority and dogma.
I think that subject matter was very appropriate for a Sabbath album.

 

I enjoy and own the original CD of Mob Rules but have never heard Heaven and Hell. What is the best mastering of this album to get on CD? Does the original Warner Bros. disc sound good like Mob Rules?

 

Honestly I didn't make it 2 minutes into the video. I just can't tolerate desperate screams for attention. Never have been able to. Maybe that makes me the jacka**

 

No it isn't.

 

No it isn't.

 

I don't know how what I said equates to this. I didn't say anything to diminish the role of Randy Rhoads, Bob Daisley, Lee Kerslake or Ozzy himself in creating his early 80's sound. But I agreed with Jon9091 that on some levels (even down to his style of singing and allowing more Beatles influence to shine) it seems like TE was quite influential on Ozzy or some of those melodic ideas at least in the back of his mind.

Incidentally, I don't buy your notion that Randy Rhoads sounds "NOTHING" like Tony Iommi. He may not have been a Sabbath fan prior to joining, but it's documented that the whole Blizzard Of Ozz band were listening to H&H and blown away by it. I believe I even read something recently that it was actually Randy who convinced Ozzy that he really should hear it. Anyway, however he came to hear it, he did, and then Ozzy was then depressed because he thought they were never going to match it. This is all chronicled in various books. He had to be reassured by other members of the band constantly that what they were coming up with could be as good as H&H.

"Metal" guitar rhythms; from staccato downstrokes to palm muting to start-and-stop staccato motifs to power-chord diads to down-tuning and on and on... these things all trace back first and foremost to Tony Iommi. Rhoads sure did learn to try using some of that stuff in a manner I don't recall being evident in his work with Quiet Riot. Even flatted fifths suddenly appeared in his playing.

So I would disagree only in that I would say he doesn't sound like Tony. I think the word "nothing", even if capitalized for emphasis, just doesn't quite add up.

 

Dio fronted Black Sabbath is maybe the most obvious example in my collection of diminishing returns. I'm sure a large part of that is it's so few albums and they're spaced so far apart.

Heaven and Hell is extremely close to being a perfect record but then immediately it's followed up by Mob Rules. Mob Rules is a very strong album with a couple of songs that rival anything on H&H but it always gets off on the wrong foot with me with Turn Up The Night. I don't hate it but it just seems clunky and ill fitting. And E5150 is too long.

With Dehumanizer there are some songs that just don't work for me at all so again there's a drop off. Plus it's this line-up's first album that seems too 'of its era', not timeless at all. They should have started the album with the titanic After All (The Dead); as good a song as they ever did. Computer God just isn't working for me, TV Crimes and Time Machine are the same. Just dated and meh.

The three Dio Years songs sound to me like a rehab assignment, get the muscles working with no real clear need for a win or a loss.

I listened to the Heaven and Hell album The Devil You Know today for the first time in ages, and maybe the first time all the way through. It seems like it says everything it has to say in the first half and by the end I'm just begging for the light at the end of the tunnel. The last few songs are a real slog.

I've found the same 'problem' with Dio solo. I have and love The Last in Line and Holy Diver and from what I've listened to that's enough.

 

Big fan of the two lps Heaven and Hell and Mob Rules. (Own the lps and cassettes)

Neon Knights is one of those unforgettable tracks.