Room size for best audio?

I am moving soon to a new house. Currently, my listening room is 25 x 19 and the side walls are lined with CDs or LPs. My new listening room will be smaller, though I will have more room to store music. (3 smaller rooms, as opposed to one larger room).

My question (and I apologize if this seems dumb but I feel like it might be helpful to me) is which room should I set up the stereo in. Here are the options:

1. 20 x 12 room, stereo at end of the 20 foot side so that I am about 15 feet from speakers which would be about 10 feet apart, carpeted floor, one concrete wall, two wood paneled walls, rising stairwell wall behind listening seat, little or no music stored here--just the stereo set up.

2. 26 x 14 room, stereo on the wide side of the room so that I am about 10-12 feet from speakers which would be about 15 feet apart, carpeted floor, concrete walls mostly lined with CD/LP shelves, rising stairwell wall behind listening seat

3. 26 x 14 room, stereo on the narrow end of the room so that I am about 20 feet from the speakers which would be about 12 feet apart, carpeted floor, concrete walls mostly lined with CD/LP shelves, rising stairwell on the right side, concrete wall behind listening seat.

That's it. Again, sorry if this seems like a time-waster or a dumb question, but any response is appreciated. Thanks.

 

I would suggest that you try all 3 and settle on the one that sounds best to you.

I have setup in 3 different rooms and I like the biggest room the best. But yours are not too much different in size, thus hard to say.

 

There are a few 'rules' that will help you out here.

One is that you also need to take the ceiling height into consideration. There are room dimension ratios (HxWxD) that work better than others.

Another thing is that, generally, bigger is better, especially when you have the ability to put in some room treatment and even out the frequencies that will be resonating inside the room.

Also, generally, you want to have your speakers on the narrow wall (with space behind them if you can) and setup an equilateral triangle between your 2 speakers and listening position.

These are all guidelines to start, of course.

Golden Ratios:
SOUND 101: The “Golden Acoustic Ratio”

Room design and more info than you'll ever need on acoustics:
Acoustics/Treatment Reference Guide - LOOK HERE! - Gearslutz

 

My dedicated listening room dimensions are the same as yours in width and height: 26 feet by 14 feet. However this is a finished basement with somewhat of a low ceiling (just under 7 feet). The speakers are facing away from the 14 foot dimension, and are several feet ahead of the back wall. I have a ton of space behind my listening location. Directly behind me is the opening to the room, which is slightly larger than a standard door and opens to a hallway that opens to the main room of the finished basement - so it's almost an "infinitely long room" since it has a nice "port".

I was concerned that the low ceiling would be an issue, but the sound is very good. I tend to like my room to be "quiet" - not impart too much of its own character (since most of that reverb etc. should be baked into the recordings I am listening to). So I have a lot of room treatments up. Here is a view:



I have everything centered and symmetric with acoustic panels (like the two you see) along the side wall and a bass trap in the back.

The sound is insanely good. What I like the most (and I like a lot) is the bass - no modes to speak of. And it extends to insanely low frequencies cleanly. I've though about putting a door on just to see how it would change the sound - a lot of sound leaks down the hallway so I'm sure it would be quite a difference.

I have not tried orienting along the other axis of the room (rotating 90 degrees) but that would force me to put the ProAcs too close to the wall in order to keep me too close to the opposite wall! It would make more sense aesthetics wise to have it that way (along with say a TV) but the sole purpose of this room is to be a place to listen to great sound so I'm not willing to compromise.

How high is your ceiling in your 26' x 14' room?

 

26 x 14 with speakers 60" to 72" out from the short wall and speakers 8' apart centered side to side. Your seat should be 8' to 12' back from front of speakers. Gives lots of space behind the listening spot for the sound to pass your ears prior to bouncing back to them. This is my suggestion for a starting point.

 

A crude pencil drawing of each room would be helpful I think. Also, fill out your equipment list, indicate on drawings your speaker placement in each room (how far from back and side walls).

 

Wow, your listening room looks great! Ceiling in both rooms is 7 1/2 feet. But if I put the system in the larger room, I think I will still have to line much of the wall space with shelves of CDs/LPs which, I assume, would affect the sound? If I put the system in the smaller room, it would be just the stereo, no shelves. But I think maybe that room is TOO small. Life is complicated, huh? We're both pretty lucky that these are the problems we're dealing with!

 

Indeed, what a nice problem to have. The dedicated listening room was a huge factor for why we bought the house we did.

When you look into room treatments, it seems the two main things that pop out are acoustic panels (which absorb primarily midrange and reduce echo) and diffusers (which "scramble" sound waves in a supposedly positive way). I like having carpeting, but some claim that deadens a room too much. As I said earlier I like the sound of a dead-ish room that lets me get as close as possible to the source material. Rooms that are too live just mush the sound out for me for stereo reproduction (the same live room would make a wonderful recording space for, say, a solo acoustic instrument that would carry that lovely room echo into my nice deadish room!). When I first plopped the speakers in the empty room with no treatments it sounded like garbage. I had a huge amount of slap echo as would be expected. The acoustic panels took care of that, as well as moving a bunch of "stuff" into the room that makes it less of a perfect box.

A great stereo in a great room is a wonderful thing. The room is the most important component, IMO!

Finally I don't know whether I buy the hype on diffusers. I don't have any. The stuff you are concerned with - having objects along the walls etc. - might actually act as diffusers and serve an acoustic purpose. The most important things for me have been getting the speakers away from the rear wall (assuming you have "typical" speakers that shine in this arrangement), the room treatments, and being careful to set everything up symmetrically (get out the tape measure). Your rooms are large enough that I suspect you'll have a nice wide/tall/deep soundstage and hopefully mostly flat bass that lacks serious modes.

 

Bass waves need room. Klipshorns supposedly needed a 40' wide room to give proper bass. I had a friend that literally designed his listening room around that.

 

Just a general note about floor reflections.

In some cases carpet definitely helps, such as in the quoted situation.
The thing with floor reflections is that it is the only common reflection in all rooms that your brain will generally ignore.
If you're 6 feet tall, the floor is always, say 5'8", away from your ears, similar in the seated position, no matter what room you are in. Whether you're in a closet or a gymnasium, it's the wall and ceiling distance that tells your brain what the space your in is like.
Carpet is definitely a case by case decision.

 

I vote room #2. Makes a close to symmetrical triangle. Adjust speakers and listening distance for best sound.

 

The speaker type needs to be considered, along with the room dimensions (the ceiling height is important), and what’s in the room. For example, dipole planar speaker placement would be different than a typical dynamic speaker or for a corner horn loaded speaker. The room length, width, and height all need to be considered to minimize the possibility of generating frequency nodes, such as a mid-bass boost. What’s in the room matters too, such as a big sound deadening sofa or carpet. Trial and error is a perfectly acceptable engineering solution, but I would recommend trying the Cardas method and speaker placement calculators to narrow down the field first.

Cardas Room Setup Guide

 

I'd approach the question differently ... which room might you (and other family members, if they're a consideration) naturally gravitate to for music listening? You know, the vibes, or the view, or the feng shui, comfort, whatever. Figure out the venue for that, then adapt the system to that room. Acoustics, to me, run a distant second or third to familial harmony. Given that you've three rooms to choose from, I'm guessing you have family ...?

 

I agree with bhazen.
Which room is your logical "music listening room?"
On the other hand you need to look at your choices while considering where the furniture needs to go if used for stereo listening.
It does no good whatsoever to set up speakers without considering where all the other junk HAS to go to look right...
Your speakers usually need up to six feet from the back wall to fool around looking for a spot that loads the room.
By loads the room I mean every room has a few spots for speakers where the particular speaker "comes alive."
You will have to find this spot or spots and choose if you can live with them.
A diagram of an equalateral triangle is useful only to get you into the ball park ratio so that you hear what the engineer heard when he made the recording as he used an equalateral triangle to set up the spread.
After THAT you have to play with speaker height, toe in, tip forward or backwards and of course "room lock."
A finished install the puts your listening chair up directly against a back wall may well add clarity and focus but over load the bass frequencies due to wall reinforcement.
Consider all these parameters, measure five times and cut once.
Have fun.
If you knock yourself out getting it all right the payoff is HUGE.
Room sound is 90% of what you get from your system.
Chair placement ditto.
Don't settle for less than perfect if you have the choice.
My first "perfect" room took me five years, adjusting speaker positions every morning over coffee while my ears were fresh.
What I learned from that exercise was that perfection is a make or break exercise and that it IS possible if you don't give up...
Plus I trained my ears how to listen for improvements in the room.
The next room only took a year.
My current room is coming along nicely after two years.
By the way if you are still listening,,,I suggest strongly that you go out and buy the Jim Smith DVD and especially BOOK on "How to get Better Sound."
It will be like having a professional sound room designer helping you step by step.
Somebody like ME.
And if you follow his advice you will DEFINITELY have a better system than your richest friends.
Because you will then know how to "drive" the Ferrari.
Not just "buy the Ferrari."
My two cents.

 

Thanks, everyone, for all of your input. It's much appreciated and I will give some consideration to all of it. I am fortunate enough to have a semi-local audio guru who has agreed to stop by and give me his take on things. (He is a musician and the long-time owner of the closest high-end stereo shop in my area.) Thanks again. It's going to be a while, as we don't move into the new house until late June, but when I get everything set up the way I want, I will try to remember to post a photo of it. Cheers!

 

I would simply try them all, I bet the all got different benefits

 

You have a lot of great advice already. I especially like the suggestions to use the 14 x 26 (presumably x 8) room and put the speakers along a shorter side, and the suggestion to choose the room you and your family are most comfortable in.

Mazel tov at finding such a great setup!

 

Now we would like to see that photo.

 

Mine is 30' x 16' x 8' which seems a good size for the Cornwalls...

Previously (in another life it seems) a small bedroom 12' x 10' x 8' and a smallish living room 20'x 12' x 8'. The bigger room really helps in my opinion.

 

My room is 10' x 19' x 7' with my Tekton DIs on the 10' facing the 19' length. Plus there is a 10' x 10' dining area adjacent to the front 10' wall on the right side which makes the right speaker disperse better than the left speaker. The ceiling is too low, but they still sound really good despite the room's limitations. I have a pair of KEF LS50's that "disappear" better in this room, but I like the full-range sound of the Tektons so keep the LS50s downstairs for a near-field experience in the CD room. For the DI's, I would like to have a 15' x 30' x 10' room with the speakers on the 15' wall and plenty of CD tower diffusions in the back 25' to 30' portion.

 

8' ht (cannot be altered), 18' width (can make it shorter), 20 length (can make it shorter by 4' or more - but not less, by placing a partition wall but would like to avoid), K'horns will be at the corners of the 18' width, listening sofa somewhere appropriate.......the system rack will sit in the middle of that 18' width.....this is a proposed plan...so input appreciated

 

I've used Cardas setup Cardas Room Setup Guide with good results ... but with the corner horns, need to be in the corners of the 18' width ... seems like only one solution, that is to move the sofa 'in and out' along the center between the speakers until it sounds the best. Maybe treat the corners/wall behind you to get best sound. Seems like corner horns are a special case, which is great if that works for you. Possibly the German guy (forget his name) method of putting listening position against the opposite wall could work? and be very simple. Not certain if corner/wall treatment would help or be recommended in that case. Aha, see Audio Physic Virgo loudspeaker Page 3 for where I first read about this. Apparently tho, this is for a nearfield setup, with listening position against the wall, but maybe the geometry could work.

According to the Cardas 'Golden ratio' (1.618) thing, 8' goes to 13' then to 20' ... it seems reducing the 18' dimension to 13' would get that ratio (a 'Golden Cuboid'), but then setting up speakers in that space is 'normally' also done according to the ratios ... Maybe if you want to try this, set up the listening spot at the equilateral triangle point (13' from each speaker, so about ... 11' from the wall the speakers are on). Then, I imagine treatments on the wall behind you WOULD be recommended ...

For the 18' width, maybe using the space between the centers of the speakers (about 15'?) to form an equilateral triangle would yield something like 12.5' to the listening position from the 'back wall'. This is around the 1/3 point of the 20' dimension, which seems 'recommended' in some basic setup procedures I've seen ('rule of thirds'). This is what I've ended up with (in conjunction with the Cardas nearfield setup), seems to work pretty well so far.

OF course ... I don't know anything! just some thoughts ...

 

Time ran out on my edits, so ... realizing that in my comment on using a 13' room width, I simplified the distance between speakers to 13'. It's probably more like ... 10' or 11' between the centers of the speakers which is better to use. So the distance to the listening position (with the equilateral triangle) would end up being something like 9' or so from the rear wall, which seems 'dangerously' close to 1/2 the 20' dimension, usually not good, as modes/nodes are located there. BUT with the corner horns, maybe it would all be OK !!! DO you know if they/Klipsch have a recommended setup for the KHorns? Seems like it's just a matter of sliding back and forth between the speakers' centerline to get best sound ...

I think I'd start off using the room as-is, and the listening position 1/3 of the 20' dimension from the wall behind you. So 6.7' from the wall. You'll then also have a near-equilateral triangle with the speakers and listening position. That might just lock things in very nicely.

 

hmmm

I'm taking it all in, still have some time before the construction guys work on this...the equilateral triangle set up with the sofa positioning is easily doable...its the width/length Im a bit unsure of....the height of the room cannot be altered it is what it is....I do appreciate the input tho' ...TY TY TY

 

Wow, so new construction? maybe you said that already. I really don't know 'anything' esp about corner horns / K'horns and their recommendations for rooms, etc.. The 18' x 20' doesn't seem to 'fit' as is with the 'golden ratio' nor 'amroc' amroc - THE Room Mode Calculator which might come up as a 'possible non-trusted site' or something ... but it does work OK for me on my iMac ... YMMV of course.

If you put in 20 x 18 x 8 it doesn't have the 'X' within the 'Bolt-area' but that ... like other things, may not mean the end of the world. My room isn't in there either but sounds pretty dang good. Changing the 18 to 13 puts the 'X' closer to the 'Bolt-area' but the mode distribution in the 'Bonello' area still isn't optimal. Oh well.

My room is actually asymmetric, the main part of the room is almost square (18 by about 18.5'), with 8' ceiling. The 18.5' dimension is to a short wall next to the down staircase. The width including the staircase is 23'. Then there's an office/alcove behind my left hand speaker about 7' square or something.

I 'made up' a 14' wide area and set things up according to that. So my 'area' is 14' wide, 18' long, and with the 8' ceiling. Going to get some treatment for the right hand side/back corner but it all sounds pretty good now.

I don't know what future options are ... seems like the 18 x 20 x 8 is the basic dimensions, that might work just fine ...

Here's my layout, FWIW ...