Rudolph sound issue

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Keith V, Nov 28, 2017.

  1. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Hollywood, USA
    Bad decisions get made. A lot of times, it's because whoever was paying for the new remaster would not authorize spending enough time and money to do it right. It basically boils down to, "we need this done in 6 hours."

    It may be possible that the stereo re-recorded "soundtrack" album wouldn't sync up to the animation, so that might be one reason why it wasn't used. I've seen issues like that before as well. There are techniques to create what my old pal Rick Chace used to call "Fat Mono" which are not too disturbing -- at least, if they don't add any phase issues or reverb to the signal.
  2. vintageaudio

    vintageaudio Member

    Washington State
    Must be playing on an automatic turntable instead of a manual one!
    MikaelaArsenault likes this.
  3. empirelvr

    empirelvr Forum Resident

    Virginia, USA
    I am 99.99% positive the soundtrack album isn't a re-recording but exactly the same recordings as the music used in the show, down to the snippet of "Für Elise" that's on both. I'm usually extremely sensitive to things like that.:agree:
  4. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Some of the music on the soundtrack album is the same as what's in the TV special, but some of it is not. In a couple of cases ("Christmas is Coming" and "Linus and Lucy") the alternate TV versions were subsequently released on the 2006 remaster of the album. The material was recorded at two different sessions with two different rhythm sections: the first at Whitney Studios in Glendale, the second at Fantasy Studios on Treat Street. Most of the songs were recorded twice, and both the soundtrack album and the TV special contain different material from both sessions. Guaraldi expert Derrick Bang breaks it down as follows:

    A. A Charlie Brown Christmas, original 1965 release, by the Vince Guaraldi Trio
    B. A Charlie Brown Christmas, 2006 re-mastered CD
    C. A Boy Named Charlie Brown, by the Vince Guaraldi Trio
    D. Oh, Good Grief, by Vince Guaraldi
    E. Charlie Brown's Holiday Hits, by the Vince Guaraldi Trio
    1. "Christmas Time Is Here" (vocal)
    2. "Christmas Time Is Here" (instrumental)
    3. "Skating" A
    4. "Christmas Time Is Here" (instrumental)
    5. "Air Music" E [where it is retitled "Surfin' Snoopy"]
    6. "Christmas Time Is Here" (instrumental)
    7. "Christmas Is Coming" B [alternate take 6]
    8. "Charlie Brown Theme" C
    9. "Linus and Lucy" A
    10. "Charlie Brown Theme" C
    11. "Charlie Brown Theme" C
    12. "Linus and Lucy" B [but only in first-pressing releases of this 2006 re-master]
    13. "Frieda (with the Naturally Curly Hair)" C
    14. "Happiness Is" C
    15. "Charlie Brown Theme" C
    16. "Linus and Lucy" B [but only in first-pressing releases of this 2006 re-master]
    17. "Linus and Lucy" B [but only in first-pressing releases of this 2006 re-master]
    18. "Oh, Tannenbaum" (traditional, arranged by Guaraldi) A
    19. "Fur Elise" (Beethoven) A
    20. "Linus and Lucy" B [but only in first-pressing releases of this 2006 re-master]
    21. "Fur Elise" (Beethoven) A
    22. "Jingle Bells" (traditional, arranged by Guaraldi; three arrangements)
    23. "Christmas Time Is Here" (instrumental)
    24. "Oh, Tannenbaum" (traditional, arranged by Guaraldi)
    25. "Oh, Tannenbaum" (traditional, arranged by Guaraldi)
    26. "Oh, Tannenbaum" (traditional, arranged by Guaraldi) A
    27. "Hark, the Herald Angels Sing" ("loo loo" vocal, traditional, arranged by Guaraldi) A
    28. "Hark, the Herald Angels Sing" (vocal, traditional, arranged by Guaraldi) A

    Recordings without a letter after them appear in the TV special but have not been released on album.
  5. Solitaire1

    Solitaire1 Carpenters Fan

    Reminds me of the situation with the Vincent Price movie Dr. Goldfoot & The Girl Bombs. The entire movie sounds like it was post-dubbed, and that may have been because (based on my reading in a magazine about Louis "Deke" Heyward, one of the people involved with the movie) that the original soundtrack was lost.
  6. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Hollywood, USA
    There were actually quite a few cheapo B-movies and foreign films where the final dialogue was 100% looped. That was kind of the style in the 1950s and 1960s. It's only when sound equipment got smaller, lighter, and more sophisticated did they finally start figuring out how to record exterior dialogue really well, particularly under difficult conditions. They still do ADR some lines -- like when there's giant fans in the studio or complex stunts -- but a surprising degree of dialogue in modern movies was recorded on the set. I personally don't care where it's recorded as long as it sounds good.

    In this case, I don't buy that the soundtrack was lost, because they wouldn't have been able to edit the movie without some kind of dialogue on the set. On the other hand, what is sometimes done is to record "reference" dialogue on set, then they use that as a guide when they re-record the ADR months later.
    Dan C likes this.
  7. empirelvr

    empirelvr Forum Resident

    Virginia, USA
    My comment is informed by years of reading "Video Watchdog" and their digging into how these films were made. The Vincent Price film was made in Italy. Italy and China in the 1950's to the 1980's almost never (remember I said *almost*) shot live sound due to the international mixes of the casts, especially for genre and exploitation films. For Italy, you could have Americans, Italians, Spaniards, and even German and French actors all in one scene. With China, you can have a myriad of dialects and such. It was a question of, if you were going to shoot live sound which language would you do it in? No matter what you chose, it would still be "wrong" for many potential major markets so you might as well shoot silent (or do rough on-set sound recording for reference purposes only like Vidiot said) and do it all in post.

    I found it surprising that even in their "native" Italian versions, a lot of Italian films I have seen are entirely looped, even if the cast was almost pure Italian. (Not that I understand the language, but I like seeing how films are changed for various markets so I'll often watch films I know in other country's variants to see the editing differences, censorship decisions, etc.) Even famous films like "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly" are 100% looped. (Clint Eastwood has given interviews about when making films in Italy, when acting on-set, all the actors either spoke their native languages with an understanding of what the scene was and how it should play, or did it in English phonetically without really understanding what they were saying. They rarely understood each other 100%, and it sometimes resulted in odd performances that I think contributes to those spaghetti westerns unique quality.)

    Even if a film like the "Dr,. Goldfoot" one was designed from the start to be shot for an American (English) audience, because of the number of non-English speaking members of the cast, or the heavy accents of the cast if everyone spoke English on set (even if just phonetically) it was shot MOS and always intended to be looped for all versions. The fact you can tell it's all looped says more about the low budget and/or rushed time allotted for the looping and final sound design of the film. (And let's face it, I doubt AIP spent a single cent over the absolute bare minimum for that, just as long as it had sound and was in English.)
  8. empirelvr

    empirelvr Forum Resident

    Virginia, USA
    Oh Man! Fantastic!! Thanks for that breakdown. :edthumbs:
  9. Solitaire1

    Solitaire1 Carpenters Fan

    One of the issues with Dr. Goldfoot & The Girl Bombs is that it was edited for two audiences, one in the U. S. as a sequel to Dr. Goldfoot & The Bikini Machine and for an Italian audience as a sequel to a recent hit movie starring Ciccio & Franco. I've seen both versions of the movie, and I estimate that about half of the footage in one version doesn't appear in the other, and vice versa. The U. S. version focuses on Goldfoot while the Italian version focuses on Ciccio & Franco.

    Per the commentary for the movie on the Blu-Ray disc version, although Mario Bava's name is on the movie as director, Dr. Goldfoot & The Girl Bombs was edited without his involvement. I've not seen Bava's other works but what I've heard and read indicates that it bares little resemblance to the kind of movie he would do. From what I understand, he simply was contracted to do a certain number of movies that this was one of them.
    empirelvr likes this.

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