Rundgren/Utopia: the original CDs (Rhino and Castle)

Ok.... So I know I've been over this a lot, but I think I now finally have a fairly good idea of what's happening. So I wish to dedicate a separate thread to just the Rhino discs, and I will be posting all of my further findings here. My interest is to provide hopefully helpful data for other Todd/Utopia fanatics interested in having the best non-remastered CD versions available. Since, with the exception of the two MFSL discs, those are the best CD versions currently available.

1. First off, my findings. I now know that there exist two different masterings on the original Rhino discs. One of them is compressed for higher volume and . It does not identify itself as a remaster but, for all intents and purposes, it is one.

2. The confusing note on the back of most of the original Rhino discs (but not on all of them) - "Digital remastering by Bill Inglot and Ken Perry at K-Disc" is probably a reference to the original CD mastering of the Todd/Utopia catalog by Inglot and Perry. They did not remaster the CDs, they mastered the catalog for CD. Whoever subsequently did the compression and smiley EQ on all of these discs is not identified in any way. So one might think, as I have thought for a while, that it was Inglot. It wasn't.

3. Disc faces matter. All of the ones that are quiet and non-EQd, so the good discs, are:

- for Todd's solo catalog: colored discs (images below)

- for Utopia's catalog: the verdict is currently out. I have a plain disc of Ra that does not sound messed with, also owned Oops! Wrong Planet that was good (images below) that I recently sold because I now have the MFSL which I prefer, but I have also owned a plain faced disc of Swing to the Right which did sound horribly messed with... still trying to work this all out so more data to come later in this thread.

All of the ones that are compressed and EQd, so the bad discs, are:

- for Todd's solo catalog: plain faced discs (I've sold them all, but will reacquire again for digital comparison, they're cheap enough)

- for Utopia's catalog: the verdict is out, like I said I've had a plain face Swing that sounded compressed like a Nickelback album

4. How have I determined this? Well, the digital comparison is to come once I reacquire some of the "bad" discs, but I've owned a "plain face" Hermit and played it extensively until I sold it because while I loved the music I couldn't stand the sound. Then recently I acquired this one (the ebay seller claimed it was a first issue and was nice enough to post a pic):



I rolled the dice, bought it, and the disc sounds nothing like the one I previously had. And these are both original Rhino discs for all intents and purposes. However:

- the blue Hermit disc sounds quieter and non-EQd (same systems and settings employed for playback - yes, I remember the settings I play my discs with) - within minutes I was cranking this thing

- the blue Hermit also conforms sound wise to the rest of my color-faced Todd solo catalog on CD, all of which are just as quiet and non-EQd in their own right

- the matrix of the blue Hermit matches the matrix of my yellow Runt: "Made by Discovery Systems - An American Company"... but none of the others have this particular matrix (though they sound "original" to me too)

To be continued! Now - some pictures:

 

More of the "good" stuff:

 

Forgot to post my questions to all those who are reading this:

1. If you own AWATS on an original Rhino disc, what does the CD face look like? Plain or color? If color (like the above pictured), could you take a pic and post it here?

2. Ditto for "Todd"

3. Ditto for "Utopia"

4. Ditto for "Healing"

5. If you own "Ra" and/or "Oops" on an original Rhino disc, what does the CD face look like? Plain or color? If color, could you take a pic and post it here?

6. If you own "Adventures in Utopia" on an original Rhino disc, what does the CD face look like? Plain or color? If plain, could you take a pic and post it here?

7. If you own "Swing to the Right" on an original Rhino disc, what does the CD face look like? Plain or color? If color, could you take a pic and post it here?

8. Finally, if you own any plain faced Rhino CDs of Todd's solo stuff that I have "color" matches for pictured above, which ones and how do they sound to you?

Thanks! Maybe together we can figure it all out. Digital data to come.

 

An update on the "Discovery" discs - it's an existing thread here on SH:

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...discovery-systems-an-american-company.209017/

I have two of those - Runt and Hermit (pictured above). Apparently these are the ones that rot. Now that I am holding my copy of Runt to the light I can actually see it a little bit but it still plays. It's like a haze. The Hermit's fine so far, no haze. Bottom line: the company ceased to exist in 1988, so both discs have to be pre-88. They do both sound fantastic in a flat transfer kind of way, for what it's worth. It'll be a shame to lose that Runt cd.

My matrix nr groups for the "good" discs:

1. Made by Discovery Systems (my copies of Runt, Hermit) - inscription on the label side of the disc

2. 3 R2 followed by a serial number concluding with SRC+ 01 (or SRC*01, or SRC *02, or SRC*03) - my copies of S/A, Faithful, and Ra (inscription on the playback side of the disc)

3. Initiation has a unique matrix unlike any of the other: IFPI L011 812270866-2.2 V02 KZW (inscription on the playback side of the disc)

All of these say RNCD on the disc label, with an appropriate catalog nr.

4. My copy of Oops! Wrong Planet was "Made in Germany" and did not have an RNCD catalog nr, but sounded like a flat transfer to me also.

What have you got?

 

I have CD rot issues with the original Rhino CD's. I'll check the discs to answer your questions above. My "Wizard" is plain.

 

I have Wizard (bought in 87 or 88), Todd (bought around 99) and Todd Rundgren's Utopia (bought in 88). No CD rot problems, last I checked. All are colored. Wizard and Utopia are Discovery Systems pressings. Sorry, can't do pictures at the moment.

 

Here are a few of mine.

 

And, two more.

 

Thanks, guys! I had a "plain face" Rhino AWATS, couldn't stand the sound, again. I had thought for SO long that's just how the thing sounds. But I'm pretty sure now that it was compression and EQ, the same kind as applied to the "plain face" Hermit and Swing discs that I used to have, and which the "blue face" Hermit I now own doesn't have. I just couldn't crank those discs without causing pain to my hearing. Things are beginning to fall into place...

What still isn't clear to me is how the Utopia catalog works on the Rhino discs. I see above a grey Oops, in my original post I pictured a clear faced German disc that sounds not messed with (gonna have to trust me ears, guys - I no longer have the disc). My clear faced Ra (RNCD, pictured above) is just fine also, I can run that one through EAC later. But the plain face Swing I had (German) was compressed and smiley EQd. The pattern doesn't work. And to make things more confusing, I have had one German (Oops) that was good, and one (Swing) that was bad, both clear faces.

But at least we're getting somewhere. At a minimum, with solo Todd, it seems that the colored faces are going to be the flat transfers (or as close as Bill Inglot came to it). Meanwhile, the plain faces are compressed and EQd, probably during the Rhino reissues. I'll guess for now that it's the same principle with Utopia, but in this case only some of the plain faces (but why?) were compressed and EQd. That for me still remains a mystery.

When you guys get a chance, could you post the matrix info for the discs? It'll be interesting to compare if those will fall into the same 3 domestic groups as my "good discs" or if there's actually more. Thanks!

 

The best way for us to figure this out is to post EAC peak values and matrix codes.

I wish I could help but I've stuck with my vinyl for my Todd and Utopia. I just have the MFSL of S/A? and the original Oblivion CD. I guess I'm not much help.

 

Ok, score! We're talking about the same AWATS disc. Can we hear the matrix and see the peak values? Pretty please!!

And then one of the above posters with a colored disc will just have to do the same.

 

I have AWATS on a silver face disc (blue text), obtained in 1991-92 and it sounds fine to me (and if it was squashed like you suggest I think I would have noticed). It sounds like my TR Anthology, which is colored / grey.

 

I think neither of us is crazy, but this gets more interesting by the minute. Mine was plain/silver face with black text. Would it be possible to see a pic of the one you have? I think the peak values and matrix codes are obviously going to be the key though. After all, if Utopia is any indication, not all silver/plain ones are bad.

Looks like I'm going to go back to that store and rebuy the one I traded in.

 

It's gotten separated from the cover but I will do my best (this one has been floating around in 5-6 cars for 20 years).

 

Look what I found. Discovery Systems Ra:

Except that we know that Discovery ceased being in 1988, so a mid- to late 1980s Rhino

Compare mine:



My silver still sounds non-EQd to me. So we can now modify the hypothesis a bit.

Hypothesis (Todd/Utopia on Rhino):

Rhino CD, Gen 1: colored disc
Rhino CD, Gen 2: silver disc, most likely no changes to the sound (switched to the silver b/c of the rotting issue, perhaps??)
Rhino CD, Gen xx(?)xx: silver disc, changes in sound

The German editions may reflect the Rhino generations, explaining how I could have a non-EQd Oops and a smiley-faced Swing, both German silvers.

The matrix codes and peak levels hold the answers.

 

I have few colored Rhinos (Runt, Initiation, Healing, A Cappella, Adventures) and two plain ones (S/A, Hermit). I've bought them new during the last decade, so I doubt the colored ones are original pressings. Also, the TR Rhinos (bar Tortured Artist) were released by WEA in Europe some years ago. If the colored ones and plain ones are different masterings, which masterings do these EU pressings clone?

 

As I mentioned I bought a colored Todd in the late 90's. Perhaps they continued pressing those for a while, or perhaps they just had lots of stock of Todd's less popular CDs. I bought Wizard right after it came out on CD in late 87 or early 88.

 

This is where the matrix codes are important - what do your discs say? By now among the posters in this thread, myself included, we have several owners of the Discovery Systems pressed discs. Discovery Systems was finished in 1988. All of those (including the Ra disc pictured above, you can clearly see the matrix code read "Made by discovery systems - an american company" in the image) should be pre-1988 discs, so mid- to late 80s, therefore virtually certainly original pressings as I can't imagine much earlier CD editions of Todd/Utopia.

Here's where I'm getting my dates from, btw:

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...discovery-systems-an-american-company.209017/

Something else: both of my DS discs (Runt, Hermit) do not have barcodes. All other colored (and silver) discs for Todd/Utopia do.

Now, there are non-discovery colored discs as well. I've included the two groups of the matrix codes that my non-DS discs fall under in one of my posts above, it'd be interesting to see if yours (and others') match up!

 

Discovery Systems was located right here in Central Ohio (either Westerville or Dublin, I can't remember). I worked at a record store from 1988 to 1993. I think they were still pressing discs after 1988. I'm not 100% sure but I think they were...

 

Let's see if we can get more information from McLover. His above post is from 2010, but looks like he's around and well!

 

I think your CD is 1986 or 1987 vintage myself. Rhino was beginning to change plants in that era.

 

Thanks for joining in! Do you know anything else about the early Todd/Utopia CDs? I have two questions in particular:

1. Do we have any idea whether Rhino was pressing them in different plants or just at Discovery Systems at first?
2. If at different plants (of which DS was just one), then how many?

Now, on a related note -

I have just happily acquired an olde Castle Communications CD of AWATS. It claims to be "mastered by Nimbus". I don't have a Rhino original for this one - as mentioned above, I had one of the silver "originals" that sounded compressed and EQd and got rid of it. The Castle original sounds loads better than the Rhino "original" I had, most certainly a different mastering. It breathes, it cranks, and the clarity of the bass is night and day. I wonder, however, if this Castle original is the same thing as the true Rhino original (one of the colored CDs, or perhaps the silver w/blue lettering mentioned by Paul above). I'm going to post the EAC readouts for this one as well. And by the way, if anyone has anything on the Todd/Utopia original Castles, let's add that to this thread as well (since we're already discussing the German originals anyway).

 

I have never seen the early Todd/Utopia CD issues except in Discovery Systems pressings.

 

Cool, thanks again! So, the next question then is: what do we make of these matrix codes on some of the other colored Rhino discs -

3 R2 followed by a serial number concluding with SRC+ 01 (or SRC*01, or SRC*02, or SRC*03) - my copies of S/A, Faithful (inscription on the playback side of the disc, each matrix also contains a string of stars), and Ra (same matrix code but on a silver disc)

They don't sound messed with to my ears! So I guess these then would be the later (but still on the early side, comparatively speaking) Rhino pressings at another factory? They basically sound to me every bit the equals of the Discovery Systems discs.



Really can't wait for others to post their matrix codes, btw!

 

I have to cover of AWATS, but there's a burned black-cd in it (I carry dubs in my car for obvious reasons). This cover has no bar code.