SACD / DVD-A player recommendations and some related questions

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by VU Master, Nov 17, 2017.

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  1. VU Master

    VU Master Senior Member Thread Starter

    Wow you guys, thanks for all the great info. It's a lot to absorb and not exactly what I wanted to hear, but at least I have a clue what's going on now.

    I'll definitely start shopping for a new player right away and thanks for the recs on that, super helpful!

    As for my B&K receiver, that's a bit of a heartbreaker because I really like it and it's been perfect for me in every way up till now. Sigh. As I mentioned before, I'm a pretty decent audio designer/builder (in contrast to my ignorance about proper 5.1 decoding!) and building an active box with 2 sets of analog 5.1 ins, an A-B switch, a 6-channel volume control, and 6 outs is an option, though it would be a lot of work. Maybe somebody already makes a product with those features, I guess it's worth a look. Combining that with an Oppo having 6 analog outs, I'd be in business.

    There's one thing I still don't understand. Everyone seems to agree that my player/receiver aren't outputting true 5.1, which I can believe. But does that mean that the same problem happens playing a plain old 5.1 DVD or Blu Ray over optical or coax? Were people not listening to "real" 5.1 before the advent of receivers with HDMI inputs? Is there no way to hear true 5.1 without decoding the HDMI, or having a player with 6 analog outs? If so, I'm amazed, but so be it.

    Thanks again for all the excellent replies, it's a huge help.
     
  2. lv70smusic

    lv70smusic Senior Member

    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    No, you're listening to real multichannel surround when playing a dvd through an optical or coax digital out. SACD and dvd-audio are different. In the early days of high res digital music, the only consumer connection possible was analog (whether for stereo or multichannel). Then some manufacturers introduced proprietary digital connections. I'm glad that HDMI came along.

    I'm not sure what building an active box with a pair of multichannel analog inputs would do for your current situation. What would you feed the output of that box into? I definitely wanted a box like that when I got my first SACD player since I had a separate dvd-audio player and no way to have both connected at the same time. I'm aware that such boxes existed (I seem to recall one made by Sony that got high marks from Stereophile), but it never seemed worth it to me given my relative limited finances. Again, I'm glad HDMI came along and now it's easy to connect multiple sources and have them all work AND you don't need a boatload of cables for each device.
     
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  3. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I'm not sure how building a 5.1 A-B switch is going to help you as your B&K AVR doesn't have a 5/7.1 input. The Zektor MAS7.1 HDMI/Audio switch would be what would work. But without a 5/7.1 analog input on your B&K AVR it just wouldn't be possible. If you want to play multichannel SACDs, DVD-As and Blu-ray Audio discs to their full potential an AVR with HDMI would be the best solution. Might not be what you want to hear but that's the best option IMO. I haven't used the 5/7.1 analog output of any of my Oppo players in years as using HDMI is the best option IMO. I've found that bass management in universal players is not as flexible as most current AVRs and prepros. In addition room correction offered on most current AVRs and prepros is bypassed when using the 5/7.1 analog input.

    So as far as getting the full potential of multichannel discs without HDMI or 5/7.1 analog it's not possible as far as I know. Not sure of your budget but the Sony UBP-x800 universal player now on sale for $149 is a great option. But you would need an HDMI enabled AVR to use it as it doesn't have any analog outputs. Many excellent AVR options with HDMI in entry level to high end price ranges.

    https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-u...MI5rrzt_bH1wIVhrbACh3Dug_PEAYYASABEgL2p_D_BwE

    Product Review - Zektor MAS7.1 Audio/HDMI Switch
     
  4. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Great post! I forgot how much of a PITA using the 5/7.1 analog output/input is in regard to all the additional cables.
     
  5. VU Master

    VU Master Senior Member Thread Starter

    Sorry, I should have explained but didn't -- I'm not using the amps in my B&K receiver. I have a powered Genelec sub and 5 Genelec powered monitors that are fed straight from the 6 analog pre outs on my receiver (they sound fantastic btw).

    I've see that Coleman makes a pretty decent looking analog I/O 5.1 level controller and I'm pretty sure I could add an alternate set of 5.1 inputs to it (using a D-connector since there's not enough room on the rear panel for 6 more connectors) and a big rotary switch to passively A-B between the 2 sets of inputs. The output of the Coleman would directly feed my Genelecs.

    Like I wrote before it wouldn't be the most elegant solution -- 1 more box -- but but I don't think there'd be any real sonic compromise. In SACD mode I'd be bypassing the B&K's electronics entirely (which might be a good thing), though I wouldn't be able to use the B&K remote control.

    Thanks for explaining about SACD vs. DVD 5.1, that helped to clear things up.
     
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  6. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Is this the Coleman switch you are talking about?

    Coleman Audio Switchers

    If it is you'd have to use TRS 1/4" to RCA plug adaptors for the SACD player analog output. Not sure if you'd need adaptors for the Genelec powered speakers as I'm not sure if they have TRS 1/4" plug inputs. If you do this how will you control the volume of all the speakers? Oppo players have a volume control for the 5/7.1 analog output. I've never used any of the Oppo players in that way but it should work. I'd be curious if the addition of a passive switch and cable adaptors would have any impact on the signal.
     
  7. gd0

    gd0 Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies

    Location:
    Golden Gate
    This.

    The OP seems to be looking for a way to retain the B&K, because it's a nice receiver. Trouble is, it's an oldie, incapable of handling modern hi-res multichannel.

    A switch and/or cable adapters are just clutter, with high potential for noise.

    Direct from the Oppo to powered speakers will likely sound appreciably better, if only for the short signal path.

    Cut the B&K loose, put it in a second system.
     
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  8. Steve G

    Steve G Senior Member

    Location:
    los angeles
    That sounds like a great system for classical. I hope you like classical SACD surround!!
     
  9. VU Master

    VU Master Senior Member Thread Starter

    Yes, I have adapted everything already since the B&K is RCA out. Though I was in the dark about 5.1 decoding I do this stuff for a living (40 years installing/maintaining big studios and pro audio gear) so that part is pretty simple for me. Luckily the XLR input Genelecs have plenty of sensitivity, so the lower level RCA feeds give lots of SPL.

    Yes, that's the range of Colemans I was looking at.

    If the Oppo has a volume control for the analog outs, that's even better. In that case I can probably put the A-B switch after the Coleman, which would simplify the signal path when listening to the Oppo. It would just be the Oppo straight to the powered monitors, via the passive A-B switch. I know how to do that in a super clean way that won't introduce any issues.

    EDIT: just saw bdO's reply, I guess it was sent while I was writing the above. Yes, that's exactly what I'm thinking.

    And yes I'm excited about listening to classical surround. I just got a copy of Mahler's First in 5.1 but haven't heard it yet.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
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  10. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Well I started the conversation in the right direction, somewhat ;). But you make an excellent point that I totally missed! That is to have the 5.1 analog output directly to the Genelec speakers. The only issue might be the length of the cables especially to reach the surrounds. I would guess XLR cables could be used with RCA to XLR adaptors for the Oppo. A much cleaner option that eliminates the 5.1 switch.
     
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  11. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I don't understand why you'd still need an A-B switch and the Coleman switch? If you use the Oppo that can go direct to the speakers what other sources do you have?

    I think I figured it out. You want to feed the 5.1 analog output of the Oppo and the 5.1 preouts from the B&K to your powered Genelec speakers. Would that be correct?
     
  12. Steve G

    Steve G Senior Member

    Location:
    los angeles
    The Oppo has a lovely nondestructive volume control on the analog outs
     
  13. Steve G

    Steve G Senior Member

    Location:
    los angeles
    He needs an AB switch for the front channels if he has a turntable and phone pre or if he also monitors his own work
     
  14. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Which would be coming from his B&K AVR, correct? I might have missed it but didn't see any mention from the OP about other sources.

    Does your monitor have an HDMI input? If not that could be an issue as the Oppo 203 doesn't have any analog video outputs. So you wouldn't be able to setup the Oppo as you need an HDMI enabled display for that. The Oppo 103 has a composite "DIAG" output for use for player setup. The 203 does not have the "DIAG" output.

    From the 103 manual:

    You may remove the HDMI cable and connect the DIAG (diagnostic) output to the TV through a regular composite video cable (not included) when there is a problem with HDMI video. Only the Setup Menu will be visible on the TV when using this connection, so it is limited to troubleshooting purposes only.


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
  15. Steve G

    Steve G Senior Member

    Location:
    los angeles
    Yeah I have kind of a similar setup but only a two channel switch. I don't need all five. It's worth getting a top shelf switch with balanced connections.
     
  16. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Yes. Coleman offers 5.1 and 7.1 level controller as well as a 5.1 and 7.1 input switcher. Too bad they do not make a single chassis that does both.

    OTOH, SPL makes a combined 7.1 switcher and volume control (as well as a 7.1 volume control only). Reviews upcoming in Stereophile.
     
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  17. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Yikes! I'm sure it's an excellent 7.1 switcher and volume control. But for a home audio application kind of pricey at $899.

    SPL SMC - Surround Monitor Controller
     
  18. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Pricier than that:
    Volume control only: [​IMG]
    Volume control and switcher: [​IMG]
     
  19. VU Master

    VU Master Senior Member Thread Starter

    Sorry to be MIA for a few days but I've been out of town with no forum access and (believe it or not) did a 103 mile bike ride yesterday.

    Anyway thanks once again for the further info and comments.

    Bill Mac, you are quite correct that for a setup like this, long unbalanced consumer level RCA feeds to the rear surrounds might be an issue. However in my case the feeds will only run to the Genelec subwoofer, which is just a few feet away. The Genelec has active high pass filters on each of the 5 speaker feeds. It strips out the low bass content, adds that to the LFE signal and routes it to the subwoofer amp. The 5 speaker feeds are buffered and converted to +4 low impedance balanced, then wired via balanced cables to the 5 active speakers. So cable length from the switch or monitor controller outputs won't be a concern.

    And my video monitor does have an HDMI input, so no problem feeding video from the Oppo.

    Kal Rubinson, thanks for suggesting the SPL unit. I need to compare that to the Coleman options and figure out which type would be better for me. Unfortunately I'm resigned to having to spend at least one or two grand to buy the Oppo and other gear so whatever happens, I know this will be an expensive addition. I'm ok with it though because I bought the original system a long time ago, it's served me really well, and having a good 5.1 system is very important to me.

    And yes, I still need an A-B switch because I have several stereo sources including a turntable. Also I have the B&K wired so that it powers all my speakers and other components on and off via heavy duty relays from the remote control (it has a low current control output for just that reason), and there are other features I want to keep. So I'll be keeping all that stuff as is, but adding the new 5.1 system as an alternate feed to the speaker system.

    I'm going out of town for quite a while, but while away will mull over my options and shop around for the pieces. I saw a few used Coleman units on ebay but I've got 2 months for one of those (or the SPL model) to come up at a good price.

    Next year after I get it all set up I'll report back and let you all know how I wound up doing it.

    I still have one more sidebar question, if anybody knows. Why exactly is it that with standard DVD's and Blu Rays, 5.1 audio is carried correctly over optical, but not with SACD 5.1? Are 2 different codecs used? I tried to research this on the web but couldn't really find the answer.

    Thanks!
     
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  20. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Yes. DVDs and BDs use Dolby and/or dts codecs or plain vanilla PCM while SACD uses DSD.
     
  21. caupina

    caupina Forum Resident

    Location:
    Santiago, Chile
    And native DSD can only be transmitted via HDMI or some propietary connection like Denon Link.
     
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  22. Kal Rubinson

    Kal Rubinson Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    or USB or Ethernet (if you consider the files).
     
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  23. scobb

    scobb Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    If I've understood this correctly....

    A Sony UBP-x800 (or any player that plays the formats you want with an HDMI socket) + and an HDMI audio extractor like this HDMI 1.4 Audio Extractor | Jaycar Electronics should work! OK you don't get native DSD but the audio extractor converts surround HDMI to optical which you can then use with your current AVR.

    Simple.... or have I missed something?
     
  24. caupina

    caupina Forum Resident

    Location:
    Santiago, Chile
    I don't think that's the way it works explicitly, if you look at the outputs it does have an HDMI so so you can get pretty much any codec transmitted natively if your gear is able to decode it, but as far as getting them out of optical or RCA my guess there'll be the usual restrictions.
     
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  25. scobb

    scobb Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    This is not the case, the optical out is unrestricted (ie does not have any "restrictions"). I only use it for stereo but it plays SACD + full resolution (upto (24/19) DVD-A and Blu ray audio over optical, it maybe that his AVR would not accept hi rez over optical but then I think he should be able to restrict his player to output audio at a lower rez (ie 16/48)? Yes this wouldn't be hi rez surround sound, but it would achieve surround sound from any format.
     
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