SACD vs. Redbook vs. Vinyl vs.... done the right way? FINALLY?

Link!

http://www.stereophile.com/news/071904k622/

 

I read this, pretty interesting. So now we can compare pure DSD compared to DSD sourced from analog tape. I'm especially interested to hear redbook sourced from analog as opposed to redbook sourced from DSD. So many redbook layers on hybrid SACDs are sourced from DSD, I've often wondered if there are any ramifications of it. I'm no analog tape expert, but why would 15 ips be better than 30 ips?

 

That guy had some interesting ideas about that. He said there's more noise (or something) on 30ips? Huh? I hear 15ips as having more analog coloration than 30 ips. The bass on 15 ips is different than the input signal, much more so than it is with 30 ips. There's more tape compression at 15 ips also not to mention the increased noise floor which would be more apparent with classical music.

 

I am anxious to pick up K622 and listening to differences in the format. Tony has some issues with Super Audio that I don't necessarily agree with but he is a fantastic record engineer based on the work done so far.

My bet is that pure DSD is slightly better than analog>>DSD but I'm going to keep an open mind.

 

Be sure to let us know what you hear.

 

Steve, what are you feelings about 1/4" v. 1/2". He used 1/4" for these recordings. What differences do you hear between the two. I've never printed to 1/4" tape before.

 

Steve,

Why do I mentally picture all master tapes at 1" or 2"? Obviously I've seen very few. What percentage of them are the skinny 1/4"?

 

Most multi-track masters would be on 1" or 2" tape (analog tape, that is). These could be in configurations of 4-track (Beatles tapes on 1") to 24-track (on two inch tape) with odd variations here and there. These are then mixed down to stereo on a smaller width tape, most commonly 1/4" tape at 15 inches per second. Lately, however, it has become popular to mix down to 1/2" tape at 30 inches per second or even to 1" tape on specially modified machines. That is, if they aren't going digital.

 

Exactly why I care about the mastering over the format when buying my high-res digital discs.

 

Thanks for the explaination, Pink.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled discussion...

 

The issues with 30ips tape is contact with the tape head. Air acts as a fluid and at that speed the characteristics of the head contact are influenced by the thickness and even the existance of that fluid between the tape and the head. Proper hardware design can deal with this issue but it can be an issue with flat bass response. It is also possible that friction can increase heat over 15ips and higher head temperatures can lead to saturation of the heads when fed high level high frequency input.

One of my favorate designs was a cross-field design that used two heads, one across from the other, with one feeding signal the other bias voltage. Worked great at low speeds but never saw it in a 15ips or 30ips recorder.

Richard.

 

I am going to purchase this record. I will let everyone know what I think. I love the fact that it was recorded direct to two track, on one of my favorite tapes, EMTEC SM900. This recording will be a treat to listen too, both musically and sonically. I would have chosen an Ampex ATR for this particular session, because the Ampex has a smoother transport, and better electronics, but it will still be a great recording.

Also, this is an excellent comparison of analog and digital recording, not just the delivery formats, but the master formats.

 

Hes using Dolby A for headroom extension. I would have rather seen him use 30ips with no noise reduction. He is using Emtec SM900 tape, which is a +9 tape, there is no need to use Dolby A for headroom extension, or for NR, because the tape is so freekin' quiet allready!

 

Mike, the argument was over higher sampling rate versus mastering impact, not over mastering impact versus DSD/PCM differences.

I still believe that higher sampling rate is just or more important than a quality mastering job on the back end. Of course, I always hope we get both and with hirez we usually do, in part to the newness of the recordings.

I look forward to hearing the various versions. Tony and I have actually talked by phone periodically and I think he biggest beefs were with workstation availability but that has been mitigated greatly in the past year with more DSD ready features.

The great treasure here is that the project is being overseen by Anthony who is both musician and audiophile and knows a boat load about circuit design and clean signal paths. We should get some stellar sonics. Having John Atkinson involved to some extent can only help. He is also very knowledgeable on purist miking techniques.

 

Now, if the collection could have somehow included a high-res PCM version, maybe the test could be complete... I need to order that CD

Something that bothered me is that the original article seems biased against SACD from the start. Seems that all the ultrasonic noise bothers many people to no end.

 

Perhaps due to Tony's pro-hirez PCM views...

The funny thing is that John Atkinson tells me repeatedly and in print that he can't hear it. It's a red herring...there is no perceptible sonic effect in my opinion. Furthermore several leading critics think the ultrasonic noise people think they hear is due to poor Super Audio implementation, not the noise.

 

How old is he? We all lose high frequencies as we age. I'd love to see some magazines get editors/reviewers that are in their early 20s, with the best, young ears.

Much ado about nothing. The final conclusion was that DSD is not inferior to high-res PCM, but that they are comparable. Doesn't seem very anti-SACD to me.

 

If only the vinyl was mastered by Steve instead of Stan...

 

Stan Ricker is an excellent mastering engineer and a top vinyl expert. We could do far worse...

 

Most sessions that I have played on the tape is always being recorded at the 15ips speed. This would include 1 inch tape 1/2 inch to 1/4 inch as well.

Except for the TWIST-A-RAMA tapes MIKEY those were recorded at 3 3/4ips for all I can remember.

 

Stereophile SACD test

Hi everybody,

I've just joined this forum after reading this thread on the Stereophile test. In other forum in Madrid we have carried out the test with the Stereophile material and I'm anxious to know if yo have done the same overhere and what results you have obtained.

Cheers

 

Welcome to the forum. Here at the Steve Hoffman Forum you will find endless debate about the merits of analog over digital, the differences between DSD and PCM and a whole bunch of other audio issues. If you stick around this forum long enough you will actuall earn an "accredited" education in sound and audio and you will learn all kind of little mastering secrets and all kinds of other neat stuff. Some times we do get crazy here, like that one time thast somebody mentioned The Beatles Capitol Box, but otherwise we are just a bunch of music loving people that like to discuss our likes and dislikes of different music issues. Welcome, I hope that you stick around.

 

Thank you therockman, a warm welcome indeed

I'm sure I'll pick up quite a few bits of knowledge among you.

I, like you, am more of a music fan than an audiophile myself.

And if sb happens to have done the Stereophile test with the Mozart k622 concert I'd really like to share impressions.

Bye