Say Goodbye to the iPod Classic

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by paulisdead, Oct 10, 2013.

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  1. toptentwist

    toptentwist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    So that means Apple is expecting to keep me as a customer because they assume I'm willing to spend $5,000 to get what I've purchased previously for $1,000.

    That's a 5X increase in price.

    How many companies assume their customers are willing to accept a 500 % increase in price ?

    This has nothing to do with technology, or market analytics - it has everything to do with hubris and greed.

    Again, name one company that has successfully altered its price points in this extreme fashion and didn't whistle quickly to the graveyard?

    Apple's stock price skyrocketed because the little click wheel device provided value to its customers. It can go back down as quickly as it went up.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2014
  2. toptentwist

    toptentwist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Have you found a way to get a third party storage device (such as a flash memory stick) to present itself to a third party device (such as car headunit) as an "ipod" ?

    I suspect the problem is the flash memory stick would need to run some sort of Ipod software - which Apple would need to supply. Or someone would need to "reverse engineer" (and be exposed to a law suit).
     
  3. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    Sounds like the Pono player would be a good option for you.
     
  4. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    You aren't going to be able to have another device pretend to be an iPod and be compatible with head units and other devices that can control and play an iPod.
     
    sunspot42 likes this.
  5. toptentwist

    toptentwist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Which is why eventually the Ipod will lose market share to something that is compatible with head units and other devices.

    I don't think it will be a Pono - but I'll be pleasantly surprised if I'm wrong.

    I suspect it will eventually be a device that uses the Android operating system.

    My son showed me a list of auto manufacturers that have some sort of partnership with google. The list was very long.

    I commented that Apple probably has a similar list and my son replied "They have one partner that I know of - Ferrari"

    Yep... sounds about right... why sell to everyone when you can sell to those who can afford a Ferrari? LOL

    It'll be a matching set... a car that costs at least five times more than anything else on the market paired with a music player that is 5 times as expensive as the one they used to sell.

    Why sell to Rodney Dangerfield, when you can sell to Paris Hilton ? She clearly has more money - it's just a waste of time and effort to bother with people who can't pay the new price.
     
  6. toptentwist

    toptentwist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Nah... my Marantz turntable in combination with a tube amp and a pair of Tannoy speakers will do just fine.

    It's what I used before the Ipod classic caught my fancy.


    As for my car? It's back to AM sports talk radio.
     
  7. toptentwist

    toptentwist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    I don't really understand the Pono... I get that Neil Young likes hi-res music - and I get that he wants a small device with a nice analog output... but I don't think he understands that portable listening has other things going on that subtract from the experience (i.e. ambient noise in a car, subway, plane, etc.)
     
    sunspot42 likes this.
  8. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    Portable listening also means taking high quality headphones out to the porch at home and listening to music. Or listening to music in a hotel room when you're traveling. Or listening to some music while in bed at home. Or listening to music in many other places and situations that are reasonably quiet where you aren't fighting external noise like on a plane or train or car or subway. Portable listening isn't always filled with distractions and noise.

    Hiking up to a ridge and listening to a Rachmaninoff symphony while enjoying the view is an awesome way to listen to music. Especially if the music playback is extra special good.
     
    JeffMo, Billy Infinity and Vidiot like this.
  9. colinu

    colinu I'm not lazy, I'm energy saving!

    Your son is wrong. Apple is well integrated into most headunits, and has been for many years. Carplay is being adopted by most car manufacturers or the OEMs that supply them. Most automakers are supporting both Android and Apple. Now here is a little laugh for ya. The OS these systems use is QNX - which is owned by Blackberry.

    It would be nice if Apple licensed the ipod music guts, but that isn't going to happen. I have read that itunes sales are suffering because of streaming. Apple has a laser guided eye on where it wants to go. Jettisoning anything that isn't in its future is part of the plan. Loyalty, while noble isn't.
     
  10. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    The iPod already lost all of its marketshare, to the iPhone and Android. Nobody gives a crap about the iPod anymore. Which is why Apple doesn't care, either. The number of people in America who have any need to carry more than 128GB of music on a single non-phone device could probably fit into a single large stadium. And for most of them, streaming is now a superior solution - no need to sync your device for an eternity...
     
    wgriel and Vidiot like this.
  11. colinu

    colinu I'm not lazy, I'm energy saving!

    Streaming might be Apple's undoing if they can't get themselves in the game. Corporations are like boats - the bigger they are, the harder it is to change direction. I saw a report that HP is planning on getting into the 3D printer market in 2016 - the market is moving forward without them.

    Apple Pay may not succeed in many markets outside the US where NFC on credit/debit cards and terminals already are in use.

    Further off topic: one of the major media carriers in Canada is Bell. Many of their service vehicles have ads that read "Wireless TV. Yes, Wireless TV." I'm old enough to remember when all TV was Wireless TV except for the power cord.
     
  12. toptentwist

    toptentwist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    I have enjoyed Apple compatible head units in two cars and a number of rental vehicles.

    But I've also got a wierd head unit in my current car that can do *both* Android and Apple - and the capabilities aren't close.

    With Android, the phone uses the head unit screen - which means ANY app on the phone is available on the head unit screen. The headunit screen looks like an Android phone - and you can read email, surf the web, whatever. Anything the phone can do, the headunit can display - in conjunction with touch screen commands from the headunit that are identical to what is done normally on the phone's touchscreen.

    Funny thing is I didn't even WANT Android support on the headunit - and didn't plan to ever use it. The car installers didn't even know how to make it work (something about the pinout not being identical for all android phones). And they were pretty confused why my headunit had one high power USB port that doesn't send data (just power) and another that is for devices to talk. But the software has steadily improved, and now it's much better than it was when I bought the head unit (about 18 months back). It works pretty seemlessly now (for Android).

    Meanwhile, what I can do with an Apple device has gotten progressively worse. For example, I can (still) send video to my car headunit and display it (with the parking brake on, unfortunately) using my Ipod Classic but I can't do the SAME from an Iphone 5 - which sounds downright odd and counter intuitive. I can't really wrap my head around why there was a conscious decision to remove video playback from a new product - making it less fun than it's predecessor. If someone has gotten that to work, let me know. My youngest son watches his slingbox on my car head unit through his Android phone.

    Android doesn't care about the parking brake - because it exploits the Pandora loophole. This basically means if the device wants to do some sort of interactive thing with the screen (i.e. thumbs up or thumbs down) all the device has to do is classify what's coming across the wire as "Pandora" for it to work.

    I'm guessing Apple could modify lightning and allow it to carry video (and/or control traffic for a third party screen) but if they did, it would be a reversal of course - and Apple doesn't seem to have a habit of ever bringing anything back once they've killed it.

    Not having seen Apple's "Carplay," it looks like Pioneer's "AppRadio" and seems like it will require it's own application store (as is the case with "AppRadio"). If not a special store, just a small corner of the existing I-store will have apps that are "Carplay" compatible (as is true with "AppRadio" applications).

    There aren't many Pioneer "AppRadio" apps (maybe 20 total). I'm guessing Pioneer decided 5 years ago that they could simply announce "AppRadio" and applications would follow. Apple will hopefully have more muscle - but they seem to be repeating Pioneer's mistake. I don't think it's wise to give their competitor a wide open door to move in, add features they abandoned, and allow them to pull away in a market they once owned (exclusively). But that seems to be the official strategy.

    What I expect to happen is we will go from a market where seemingly every car supported Apple, to a segmented market where car vendors will support one vendor or the other - or (more likely) a limited set of features from the vendor they don't like. "Android, sure send us HDMI video.... Apple, you keep sending us song title - and artist info - but no artwork.

    True story, I rented a spanking new minivan last august that had about 10 USB ports sprinkled around the vehicle and an HDMI port that my kids used in conjunction with a chromecast dongle (while on the road !) , but the stupid head unit couldn't display artwork from an Iphone or Ipod - something that was almost universal in cars with display screens a few years ago.

    So first video disappears (because the device got rid of it), and now artwork disappears (because the head unit developer apparently got tired of dealing with a moving target).

    I can live without artwork - but my four day drive was sure boring without it.

    I remember reading one time that the founder of Netscape refused to consider a world wide web that had no graphics when he was he was a college student trying to improve what others thought should remain as a "text only" technology. I applaud that effort. No whining, just a commitment to what he knew people would enjoy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2014
  13. toptentwist

    toptentwist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    And no need to purchase anything.

    That's the part that kills me.

    What does Apple expect to sell me in a cloud based world ???

    In a world, where I have no storage - I also have no need to buy stuff to store.


    There was a relationship between the two.
     
  14. eddiel

    eddiel Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Apple hasn't increased your price point at all. An Iphone is not meant to be a replacement for a high capacity mp3 player.

    Those price points you are referring to are for completely different products, not the same product.

    I don't think that people who had the Classic will suddenly by an iphone once they discontinue the Classic. That's not really the point of the iphone i.e. to act as a mp3 player with stored music. Some might move to the ipod touch but don't be surprised if that product line disappears as well at some point.

    This really is about market analytics. They night be greedy and might even show hubris but that Classic was discontinued because it was irrelevant to their bottom line.
     
  15. toptentwist

    toptentwist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Understandable.

    I'm rooting for Neil Young - just not sure I will be an early adopter.
     
  16. toptentwist

    toptentwist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Ok. What have they offered me to continue enjoying the music I currently own ?

    And what enticement have they offered me to continue to buy the occasional download from them?


    You can say "Oh - its a different product" but that's only in a world where you're trying to put my ability to enjoy music into a smaller box.

    Once upon a time, I thought a "close and play" phonograph was pretty cool - but I was spoiled as I got older and I moved on from each technological upgrade to the next. Each time, I bought a new album or a new player, my life became more enjoyable.

    This is the first time where someone in a suit has said "No. Your desire to buy music means nothing. We've done our homework and we think we can make more money if you enjoy less music."
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2014
  17. colinu

    colinu I'm not lazy, I'm energy saving!

    I have a Pioneer AppRadio head unit - POS. I currently have a 30pin Ipod Touch attached to it. If I wanted to use it with a Lightning Ipod Touch my dashboard would have to be torn apart to replace the cables. Same for Android. And for the person who says use Bluetooth - No! I want my device to be charging and I want quality sound. And I am sick of two warning messages every time I start the car. Like I said Pioneer POS!
     
  18. toptentwist

    toptentwist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    True.

    Which is why I don't have Apple products to buy.
     
  19. toptentwist

    toptentwist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    It sounds like you're assuming your next car will have an analog input jack.

    The day when those are missing too - isn't far away. URRRGGHHH !!!
    (Please don't shoot the messenger - I'm not happy about that idea)

    I understand completely what you're talking about with dashboards and cables - which is why I never wanted a competition.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2014
  20. toptentwist

    toptentwist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    My kid was an early adopter of google's NFC technology. He likes pulling out his phone to pay for stuff - just because it always got a funny look from the merchant - and sometimes disbelief.

    He did make a comment to me today that since Apple has come out with its version, the number of places where he can use his Android phone to pay for things has gone up tremendously.

    In this case, it's a situation where a little friendly competition benefited everyone.

    Or at least, benefited those who want to buy/sell things using a phone as a fancy credit card.

    I don't really care about that... except if someone can convince me its more secure than a credit card.
     
  21. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Why? iTunes is just a side business for them. People need devices to stream with - and Apple will be happy to sell them those devices.

    Also, don't assume streaming will always be as inexpensive as it is now. At some point I expect the labels to drop the hammer on these streaming services and start charging big bucks, the way the studios are putting the screws to Netflix and Amazon. When that happens a lot of the midgets are gonna get squeezed out, and you're gonna be left with the bigger players who have established relationships with the labels (like Apple).

    Their cloud services, and the devices that work with them.
     
  22. toptentwist

    toptentwist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    So you're telling me that the cloud based services that I don't use today - because I don't like the pricing - will become more attractive to me as they become more expensive ?

    And you need to change "devices" from plural to singular - because at best I will only need ONE streaming capable device.

    If I was trying to sell as many devices as possible to every person on this planet, I would prefer to convince each and every person that they need multiple devices per person.

    Seems like assuming "one" device per person will limit their growth, not increase it.

    I'm sorry, I liked the idea of trying to put my record collection in a small space.

    Seems like the new idea assumes that I will rent things that I already own.
     
    JasonA likes this.
  23. toptentwist

    toptentwist Forum Resident

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    http://news.yahoo.com/only-two-days-left-watch-36-great-movies-230018403.html

    The wonders of not owning a physical product.

    Yummy.

    Movies don't really bother me - especially when the chance to buy titles still exists.

    But I can see a day when songs I like are gone from the cloud because someone decided
    the number of people listening to these songs doesn't justify the cost for the service provider
    to keep them in the cloud (or keep the licensing active).

    Hell - I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of my Itunes library isn't even sold in the Itunes store.

    There are many times when I go looking for something to purchase in the Itunes store and its
    not there.

    I bought a Heart CD the other night (the "greatest hits / live" album from 1980). Discovered that
    the CD has been missing 3 of the 18 songs for a long time now... so I went to Itunes to see if I
    could buy those missing three songs to complete my album. I could only buy one of the three.
    The other two songs were purchased via a physical product seller on half.com

    That was only a 33% usefullness ratio for Itunes - as it stands today.

    To be fair, I'm kind of happy about the 10 or so Motown albums that showed up recently in the Itunes
    store - as "download only" re-issues (no physical product). Funny thing, however, was Apple's
    prices were more than Amazon's - so I didn't buy from Itunes.
     
  24. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    The problem is you don't represent much of a market. Consumers are flocking to streaming services for movies, television and now music. Folks who buy physical media and rip and store their own digital media are a fast-vanishing portion of the market. We're pretty much talking 10% of the market or less, which for Apple ain't worth worrying about. At all.

    Streaming services are likely to become both more expensive and more comprehensive as time goes by. It remains to be seen what the end value proposition is. Prices can only rise so high though before digital piracy becomes an issue though, so I suspect eventually even audiophiles and collectors will (mostly) migrate to the cloud...
     
  25. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    The Wall Street Journal's conversation with Tim Cook this week was interesting. Here's the story:

    Tim Cook: iPod classic was discontinued
    due to unavailability of parts,
    engineering a new version wasn’t worth it


    Apple CEO Tim Cook clarified the recent decision to quietly remove the iPod classic from sale earlier this year during a talk tonight at Wall Street Journal’s WSJD Live conference. According to the executive, some parts needed to manufacture the device were no longer available, and the cost of engineering a new version that didn’t require those parts wasn’t worth the effort due to low user demand.

    The device vanished without a mention from Apple’s website last month following a redesign of the company’s website immediately after the iPhone 6 debut. It was the last device Apple still sold that used the “legacy” 30-pin connector, while all other iPod models have moved onto the Lightning connector.


    http://9to5mac.com/2014/10/27/tim-c...ing-a-new-version-wasnt-worth-it/#more-349330


    I personally think Cook was being disingenuous, but it was easier for him to say what he said rather than say the truth: "The iPod Classic's sales have plummeted, our market research indicates nobody cares about it anymore, and it wouldn't be cost-effective to build a new one with different parts (like a solid-state version)."
     
    RoyalScam, Peter Pyle and sunspot42 like this.
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