Sennheiser 800 versus the forthcoming 800S

They are leaning to the bright side. The polite way to say it is to say they sound "cool".

One way to warm them up is to use an amp that has a higher output impedance. The amps higher output impedance will give the HD800 a little bump in the bass centered around 100 Hz. As explained by NWAvGuy: Headphone & Amp Impedance. The Sennheiser amp and amp/DAC for the HD800 uses that trick. I think the Sennheiser amp has an output impedance around 20 or 40 ohms. A number of tube amps also have a moderate or even rather high output impedance. Those sorts of tube amps often go well with the HD800. I believe the Manley and TTVJ amps mentioned have a moderate output impedance. A lot of solid state amps aim for having an output impedance below 1 ohm. Those sorts of solid state amps can cause the HD800 to sound brighter, especially if the amps sound too much like hyper-clean solid state. Another way to address the brightness is to find an amp that sounds smooth. My Cavalli Liquid Fire is in that category. The Liquid Fire has two headphone jacks. One low Z jack at under 1 ohm. One high Z jack at 50 ohms. But the Liquid Fire sounds smooth enough on its own that the HD800 sounds nice and full with the low Z jack. Don't really need the high Z jack, but it's fun to play with and have the option to use.

 

I don't believe Sennheiser is trying to position anything, anywhere. It appears engineering wise, they took steps to enhance the lower end the best way their engineers like Axel Grell could achieve this improvement. They took a long time to make this change to their flagship headphone, it was certainly no snap decision. It's apparent by the great review from Tyll Hertsen, what they did has improved the design. The 6K bump and the modest bass has been a complaint for years, and now that Sennheiser has carefully tried to solve the problem, Mr. Bass says it's now a consumer product, a compromise so to speak, however, before the change was made, everyone was screaming about the modest bass and especially the 6K bump. I have spoken to Scott Houston and have read and watched Tyll's impressions of the the new and improved HD-800, and I would characterize this move by Sennheiser as an improvement of an already top shelf headphone. If they have addressed what everyone wanted them to address, and obviously that resonator was heavily engineered and thought out, as the French DIY guys have tried to replicate it with it their Super Dupont resonator, and fell short, Sennheiser has obviously improved the HD-800 headphones. As Tyll said in his review, the DIY resonator is simply not up to par with the Sennheiser resonator. From what I can gather, the 6K bump has been completely and totally resolved, and everyone that hears these headphones loves the results. I fully realize everyone is in the game to make money, but I do think that Sennheiser probably looked at this thing for many years, and their fix was well thought out. Can you imagine all the design adjustments they made before coming up with that resonator? I am looking forward to receiving my HD-800S headphones and hope there is even more improvement, when I am able to use the new balanced 4 pin cord that is included with this set, who knows, I might get a little extra low end with the new cord! I would guess if Sennheiser could have made a huge improvement in the low end of their headphones, the HD-1000X1 might have been born, but at this point in time, we just have to believe that the HD-800S was a good faith effort to improve an already stunning product, and it appears they hit the mark, or came pretty darn close.

They do make a much improved version now, but I can't seem to get that discounted price, so I will have to stick with the 800S and be a happy camper!

 

No it wasn't me who called the 800 a consumer product it was @Albireo. I was merely reacting to his statements as well as the Inner Fidelity technical report that @Ham Sandwich provided. Also I said nothing about the 6k bump rectification (a good thing); my only concern was the reported bass distortion in the Inner Fidelity report. If you reread my post I state specifically I welcome any improvement which makes it a more tonally accurate headphone. My objection was that the Inner Fidelity technical analysis seemed to point to an added euphonic distortion.

 

Thanks for your reply. Makes a lot of sense.

 

If I ever win the lottery I'm getting two of those.

 

I understand what you are saying but warmth doesn't really come from low bass; rather it is generated in upper bass and lower midrange. If they figured out a way of delivering slightly more emphasis to that area then it would warm the sound in a more natural way. To emphasize partials in bass notes is to disturb rhythmic precision and enhance perceptual masking of higher notes. The reviewer complained of that very effect albeit in a minor way: ["But, I do hear the bass as a little less precise in the HD 800 S, having a bit more pleasant bloom, but also being just a tad growly and congested, calling attention to itself.] He also noted a slight enhanced recess around 1kHz. This is another thing which I find problematic in modern gear which is a U shaped tonality bias of bass and treble with recessed midrange.

Not having heard the 800S I don't want to make any conclusions here , but just explain why I am concerned.

 

Keep in mind that the review is doing the equivalent of splitting hairs. The HD800 is revealing enough that it lets you hear little minor changes. It lets you focus in and identify minor changes. And allows reviewers and hyper-critical listeners to get really critical. Things that are minor on the HD800 can be completely oblivious on other high-end headphones. This is both a blessing and a curse for the HD800. Minor changes can get noticed and because they're noticed can become an issue of contention.

Have you listened to a Stax SR-007 or SR-009? Stax bass is also very clean and separated and layered. It's a style of bass that takes some accommodation to get used to, and requires some apologies when getting demoed so that the person demoing the headphones understands what's going on. The bass will be less in presence and feel so you have to focus on the bass being so layered and revealing instead. Very interesting from a technical listening perspective, but not so neat from a listening enjoyment perspective.

My bias though is that I tend to listen downward to the bass. I listen to the bass as a foundation that the rest of the music builds on. Things like orchestra swells depend on the sound building up and upwelling from the bass. If the bass is too thin that upwelling doesn't happen to my ears. I enjoy listening for bass layering in bass solos for electronic, electrified, and acoustic. But for full works where the bass is meant to augment I need a bass that isn't so thin, hyper-clean and "cool".

A number of people in the Seattle head-fi group have been playing with Sonarworks EQ that has an EQ setting that is specifically designed for the HD800. These are people playing around with DACs like the Schiit Yggy, $2000+ headphones amps, expensive cables, and expensive tweaks. The Sonarworks EQ enhances the bass of the HD800 and tames the treble. But if you were to look at what it does to the THD of the bass I think you'd find the THD graph of the HD800S to be very clean in comparison. There is no way to increase the bass of the HD800, in the way that the Sonarworks EQ does, without increasing THD and other artifacts. Yet people with very critical ears have been doing just that. Compared to Sonarworks, what the HD800S is doing to the bass is just minor. (For the record, I'm not in the camp that thinks that EQ like Sonarworks is a good thing. I think it's interesting and a curiosity and I'm glad I get to hear it when I go to Seattle head-fi meets. I'm not sure if I'll try it for myself at home. If I did try it at home it would be just for curiosity and exploration rather than for daily listening.)

 

I am not disagreeing at all on the importance of tonal balance. It has led me to abandon more modern SS amps and go back to older SS models such as JBL UREI, SAE and Quad which preserved a better balanced tonal palette. I also agree that a revealing component can be a blessing and a curse. But of course we are not limited to one headphone either.

The point I am making is that fiddling around with low bass notes is not the way to add real warmth to the sonics since it is in the upper bass and low midrange where such effects lie. The reviewer felt the bass had become slightly disconnected to the sound even though it had more bloom when he focused on it. Coherence of sound is very important to me. I am simply expressing some concern since I have yet to hear the 800S. But I fear their approach here means that they could not find a way of addressing the tonal balance more effectively.

 

I finally made up my mind and ordered an HD-800S / HDVA-600 system. I also ordered a surprisingly affordable 30 foot balanced extension cable, based on the excellent advice of a knowledgeable forum member. I can hardly wait to hear all my favorite music under a sonic microscope!

 

It should all be in my hot hands tomorrow afternoon!

 

Well I broke down and ordered the HD800S.

First impression was... these are very similar to the HD800.

But after five or six hours listening I'm absolutely addicted to them. They're like an HD800.... only perfect.

Love them to pieces. Was a worthwhile upgrade. Also - I used a cardas cable with my HD800, but I prefer the stock cable with the HD800S. What the cardas did for the HD800 does not need to be done for the 800S.

 

Welp... I now have the Sennheiser system setup, but my CD/SACD player died after a few songs. It's been near death for a long time. So sadly I have nothing to listen to at the moment. I did order a new Oppo 105D last night after my player failed, plus a balanced interconnect. I bet it'll sound great!

 

If I was in the market, I'd get a good condition HD800 and mod it.

 

I found a temporary source, albeit a crappy one. I bought a super cheap ($35) Sony DVD player at Best Buy today. As soon as the new Oppo that I ordered last night arrives, I'll return the DVD player.

 

Wowy. These sound amazing, even with such a modest source. I can hardly wait for the Oppo to arrive!

 

That's tempting given the used prices for the HD800 now, and given the new resonator mod. I haven't heard the HD800 with the resonator mod yet. I assume it's doing the trick given the reviews and impressions of people who have tried it.

 

I'm listening to the Warlocks 1989 shows, on set two from October 9th right now. I was lucky enough to be at these shows. It's a real blast hearing it all in such great fidelity. The Grateful Dead under a microscope. Woot! Woot!

 

You're gonna have a lot of fun re-exploring your music with those headphones. There's really no other headphone that does what they do the way they do it.

 

Considering those people whose ears I trust, I would do the mods in an instant, as I've preferred a well modded HD800 to an unmodded one. But that's something that's off the table for me for now. I'm enjoying the HD650 and HE560 through my current gear.

 

Ive tried the superdupont resonator on my hd800, but since Im using sonarworks, I find that the superdupont now decrease too much the 6khz energy. HD-800 without sonarworks and only the superdupont mod, the sound is good, but I find them too bright to my liking and bass light.

So for now, Im only using sonarworks and hd800 without superdupont.

 

And idea how my 600's would compare to either 800 model?

 

I have the 650 and hd800. the hd800 + sonarworks is another league totally. Ive been using hd650 for 3 years, I cannot even put them back on, its really muffled and lacking transparency and clarity and the bass is not even close compared to hd800 + sonarworks.

 

The 800 has much greater clarity/depth - the soundstage is much wider, instrument separation and definition is far superior. I have the 650's and they're a great headphone for the price, the 800 is in another league especially with a good amp. The benefit is that great recordings sound amazing while those that are flawed are fully exposed (warts and all) all of a sudden you might be reaching for something less revealing.

 

I do like the styling of the 800s vs the silver 800...

 

I am going to grab the 800S's...