Setting Anti-Skate with Blank Disc: Stylus Left Visible

I recently tried the method of setting anti-skate using a blank disc with no groove (I am aware there is a lot of debate over whether this is a valid method of setting anti-skate). Following this I noticed that the stylus traced a faint but visible circle on the area of the disc with which it had contact during the test.

Having not tried this method of setting anti-skate before, I was a bit alarmed to see a path traced on the disc by the stylus. Is this normal, or is this indicative of some problem with the stylus?

Setup is an AT440MLa stylus with an SME Series IIIE arm and Technics SP-25 table. I've verified that all adjustments including azimuth, tracking force are set correctly as far as I can tell.

Thank you for your help.

 

Hi, same concern here. Using a Garrard Z 2000B with Pickering SXV 3000 with original stylus in good condition. I tried this test on a shiny new blank 12'' B side. Björk, The Gate.
After about three revolutions with no arm drift I stopped and took a look. I would say the path the stylus left was more of a discoloration then a scratch as the vinyl still reflects a super shiny surface when held at an angle to the light.
Maybe the pressure of the stylus tip playing the surface of a blank record is a lot higher than the pressure of the stylus sides playing the groove walls.
Should we be concerned? I don't know. Maybe somebody here with a little knowledge about this can help us out.

 

So why do it this way...?

 

Doing it the blank disc method way is alright as I see it.

What you need to be trying to achieve is the arm moving very slightly inward towards the spindle. If its completely still it might be too much. And if it swings inward fast its naturally too little.

 

The pressure is always higher when doing it the blank disc way, but I dont see the problem you are having here. Can you simplify the problem you are having?

In any case the reason why the pressure is higher is because the stylus is only hitting the vinyl on the very end point, which depending on your stylus shape can be very small. While in a groove there are 2 contact points on each wall that can be quite a bit larger again depending on the stylus profile.

 

the stylus normally contacts the 2 sides of the groove. ( for left and right signal)

the diamond stylus tip is very hard, having one contact point on the blank disc will most likely leave some mark in the rather soft vinyl of the record.

 

Pretty much what he said. You are AT BEST halving the contact area.

 

Shouldn't we want it to be still?

 

The problem with having it still is that you have no idea if its too much or not. Many anti skate functions have a wide margin where the arm sits still. It can be from 0.9 up to 2.0 like my old RP1. Which is the right setting? The answer is between 0.8 and 0.9. So setting it to 0.8 is on my player the most optimal as it wont rob the stylus of proper contact with the left channel groove while easily allowing it to reach back to the right one.

I recommend anyone to set anti skate by ear as well. Try a record with a lot of high frequency and modulation in one channel at a time only and see how it sounds. Calibrate it towards the least distortion an imbalance. Same for VTA and Azimuth. These measurments will change with groove modulation so just try to use the numbers as guides and tune with your ear.

 

If I use a Nagaoka MP-110 in the Pioneer's stock headshell, using 1.8g VTF, I must set anti-skate the something about 3.5 in the PLX-1000 tonearm's anti-skate disc so the arm will stand still in a blank record. If I use Ortofon 2M Blue in Ortofon SH-4 headshell, I need to rebalance the arm because it gets lighter and then set anti-skate to about 4 so it'll stand still at the same 1.8g VTF.

So, if I understood you well, I should decrease it a little (maybe to 3 for the Nagaoka and 3.5 for the Ortofon). Then the arm would slowly move to the center of the record. The effect should be something like described in post #10 in this thread?
Anti-skating confusion

 

Yes exactly. He uses the same method as me but Im not sure if it should be as fast as a runout groove, those always change in speed however. Id say just as slow moving as visibly possible.

I used to tune my Nagaoka just by ear and it landed me on 0.9 which I thought was weird at the time. It should have been 1.7 like my VTF I though, as how most beginners are taught. But that setting sounded oddly distorted in my left channel.

Then I heard about this method and ended up with about the same 0.8 to 0.9 ( its hard to tell since the rega has no usable markings ).

What the beginners method fails to realize is that it, as you have discovered, changes with carts. My old Rega Carbon cart played perfectly at 2.0 grams and 2.0 anti skate because the table is pre designed with that cart in mind. Not so with others like the MP-110.

These are things that as mentioned will change depending on groove modulation so it doesnt need to be absolutely perfect. And remember that there are those who use 0 anti skate. So at least you must be doing your cart and records a bigger favor than those.

 

Just gave this a shot myself. I just recently got a double LP with a blank side D, and have three carts to test, but only did the two I use most - AT Art9 (1.7g) and Shure M97xe, 1.75g (brush engaged). On the Shure, no lines were made in the blank dissc, at least nothing like what the ML stylus on the Art9 did. The Art9 leaves visible "trails" which is fine, I'd expect that with what I'm doing here.

My results were surprising, to me. On my table, PolyTable Super12 with a Jelco 750L 12" arm, the anti-skate has always, by ear, sounded best barely engaged, say .5g or so. But doing that on the blank record and I almost didn't catch the cue lever before the needle hit the label. It took off! So I dialed in 1.5g on the dial and that noticeably slowed the progress of the needle, but that's where it gets weird, and it did this on both carts.

With about 2.0g dialed in (knowing this "scale" isn't always accurate), I get very light movement toward the spindle at the outer grooves. But it basically "stops" in the middle of the disc. If I lower it, it moves toward the spindle again, still slowly. If I increase A/S, it starts skating back out to the outer grooves. So, I left it where it slowly gets to the middle and comes to a stop. This seemed to be the best compromise. Could be something with this particular record that causes that, but found it interesting and wanted to post my findings.

What this also means, I think, is that I've been running with far, far too little A/S up to this point. I've been thinking my Art9 needs a retip, it's about at 1000 hours, and maybe what I'm hearing is uneven wear on the tip. I bought a USB microscope to check it out, but haven't yet figured out a good way to get a picture of it yet.

 

Thanks for helping. There really wasn't a problem as left and right channels sound equally great all the way to the inner groove. I just wanted to check for drift after reading about the blank disc method in another thread. Then I was just curious about the faint line the stylus tip left behind as it didn't look like the vinyl became etched.

 

Very interesting, thanks for doing the test for us. Im just going with basic reason here but visualizing the geometry of a turntable and the forces applied it makes sense that it stops at some point.
The arm pivot vs the spindle hole are 2 middles of a circle placed next to each other. Supposedly what causes the skating force is the off set of the arm or headshell but if the arm were to cross the spindle I think there would also be more pressure for it to move backwards toward the spindle again. The further away it is increases that force.
So then the optimal should be slightly before the middle of the record to maximize balance.
Just theorizing ;^)

 

FWIW, I have never had much luck setting anti-skate using a blank disc, and the Cardas Sweep Record, which I really like, has blank tracks for doing exactly that. I just don't like the Sweep Record for anti-skate though.

Have tried the deflection method, Peter L from Soundsmith's method etc. Was never really convinced with any of them.

Have found the advice in the Van den Hul Phono FAQ to be pretty much dead on the past 10 years with different styli and cartridges. AJ recommends an antiskate force similar to VTF for conicals (I found that when I was using a Denon 103R tracking at 2.6 grams that around 2.2 would work best, so a little bit less but the Denon conical is one of the better ones out there) and around 1/3 that of VTF with more sophisticated stylus profiles like the Van den Huls themselves or different line contact or microridge styli. I track my retipped Ortofon MC 20 Super with a microridge stylus around 1.82 grams with antiskate set around .6-.7. He makes no mention of ellipticals in the FAQ-my experience with those suggests something in between the setting for the more exotic stylus profiles and conicals, probably around 2/3 of VTF.

Ultimately that is what has in fact sounded best to me and I've never experienced any premature wear of stylus or permanent deflection of cantilever (from either too much or too little anti-skate applied) in the time period (about 10 years) that I've been operating with these settings.

I think, generally speaking, many users are operating with way too much anti-skate.

Link for the Van den Hul website and the Phono FAQ below. It has a lot of excellent information in it-antiskate is in the index.

Van Den Hul | Frequently Asked Questions on our products | Infopage | Van Den Hul

 

Well it seems like hes contradicting himself.
He states that the friction of the stylus is what causes this inward force (which I dont agree with necessarily if its put so simply). What causes friction, well mainly surface area.

So by that logic if a conical tracks at 2 grams and 2 anti skate then an SAS advanced tip at 2 grams should be set at 4.0 anti skate, yet he assumes the opposite.

 

The friction truly is the cause of skating force. The friction is pulling the stylus in a direction that is angled toward the center of the record. If a line through the pivot and the stylus was tangent to the groove radius, that wouldn’t happen.

 

That is how I too understood it. But by that logic again, the skating forces of more advanced stylus profiles should be greater and need more anti skating.

I also wondered, if you have an arm that can continue to go around in circles of a larger disc, would it? Or would it simply stop when reaching the closest point of the discs center/spindle ?

 

I’ve seen data to indicate an elliptical tip experiences greater skating than a conical, but I’m not entirely sure that would translate to even greater skating force for a line contact tip.

If the stylus could continue across the label and past the spindle I think the friction would continue to be angled out to the left side until the stylus reaches the part of the surface that is turning tangent to a line through the pivot, which I suppose wouldn’t happen before it glides off the record.

 

Maybe. I am no expert, but Peter L seems to be saying the opposite of what you say above, and in agreement with Van den Hul, with respect to surface area, and ultimately its effect on friction (if there's a correlation between friction and "pressure") and anti-skate if that is indeed the primary factor in determining a proper setting in the quote below:

"Through better wall contact tracking was improved and information retrieval improved (facilitating higher frequencies), and because the total contact surface area increased, the amount of pressure per square area was substantially reduced - less pressure equals less wear on both the record and the stylus."

For further reading, that is taken from the Soundsmith page here:

Stylus Shape Information | Soundsmith

In any event, AJ's numbers have been pretty much dead on for me and may be worth experimenting with by others. There may well be other factors involved, not the least of which would be the quality and polish of the stylus itself but I've used what I would consider to be pretty high quality line contact and microridge styli over the past 8-10 years.

 

For what it’s worth I set up the odd turntable and today I set up a Pro-Ject RPM at the Hifi shop and can offer a couple tidbits for thought. I’ll get to why I mentioned the RPM in a minute.

Firstly the stylus can leave scratches on plastic and aluminum tools, that happens all the time. That little stylus point can be a nucance.

Secondly, antiskate is pretty elusive to figure out and we use a tool called the Wally Skater. That may not even be the real name of the tool and it isn’t particularily sophisticated but it does the job. You essentially have the tonearm suspended from a string off the table about 2mm or the thickness of a CD to represent the stylus height if in the groove of a record. You then adjust the antiskate so there ends up being about 50% more force from the outside of the record to the inside. This is just the basic concept and if you want to know more check this out http://veteranhifi.se/images/pdf/WallySkaterInstructions.pdf

If you actually checked the link then let me remind you: it’s not particularity sophisticated. It does work quite well however.

The reason why I mentomed the Pro-Ject RPM is because of its interesting anti-skate feature. It’s a dial and not the little weight off a string so you can get it pretty much dead on (if that’s possible). More often than not the weight reading on the antiskate dial is the same as the tracking force of the cartridge.

 

#toddrhodes Getting the microscope image-

We set the stylus as close to the edge of a CD which is set on the platter of the turntable. The CD best approximates the height of the stylus in a record groove and helps provide reflective light from the lamps above. Then with a white box behind the needle a bit we set up the USB microscope on a flexible arm and position it so as to capture the needle picture. The images end up clear and bright and printable so we can figure out stylus angles to properly set VTA.

With the arm raised you can take the same picture and you can see your stylus tip quite clearly and just how dirty or worn it is. Sometimes they just need a good cleaning depending on how much gunk gets built up or how often you use stylus cleaner.

 

Thanks @JeffTamarack! I do wish I had a flexible mount for the microscope, any suggestions on that? The white background makes perfect sense. Heck just tonight I figured out I could flip or mirror the image in the software, and that the LED lights have a brightness dial on the cable, oops on my part.

That said, if I want to get a head-on image of the stylus, is that possible with the methods you mentioned above? I can totally see the VTA piece on a CD, read about that from Fremer long ago. At this point I can find the cantilever, but the stylus itself is completely out of focus and the way you magnify the microscope I have is a dial on the body of the scope and invariably, I lose the object and have to try and find it again, rinse, and repeat. Also, I tend to be shooting up at an angle, the stylus is set back far enough from the front of the body that I just can't get that close "head on" if that makes sense?

 

You really need an arm or something like that. I've tried using the focus and the magnify options freehand and its a nightmare. I've never done a head-on but of you have a MM cart then the headshell may slide right off and you could capture a picture that way. Even an off angle shot should give you the image you need. With the microscope on a stand I can just move the unit itself until the image is focused then snap a pic. The slightest movements make it jiggle even on the stand so I have to be pretty still just hitting 'click' on the mouse. A stand or even a makeshift base/clamp thing is your first mission. Little $1 camera tripod, base for a laser level, spring clamp, a small stack of magazines beside the turntable with the scope on them, anything so you can move the scope a little as a unit to focus instead of relying on the dial. Even if you had to raise your TT up on a stack of crappy records to accommodate a makeshift microscope stand it will be easier in the long run.

And one more little piece of free advice: put your stylus guard on your cartridge while you get everything all set up .... not that I've bent a stylus backward with my sleeve before

One more thought I should mention; once set and the image is on the screen is clear you can use a little flashlight to shine on the stylus which helps figure out whats going on.

 

Well that is again completely opposite to to the claim of surface area friction causing skating. An Elliptical stylus has less surface area than a conical even.