Setting Levels When Recording Cassettes - Source or Monitor?

Hi all,

What's the correct level to use? When the deck is in Pause/Record mode I set the levels to peak at +3 and start recording, but when I play that tape back the levels are way lower, struggling to get over 0dB.

What's the true level on the deck's meters? The source (record) level or the playback (tape monitor) level?

Thanks,

Mark

 

It's both, if the deck is adjusted correctly. If it is in adjustment, a perfect test tape would record a signal at 0db and play it at 0db. Most later cassette decks were designed and adjusted specifically for for Maxell UD. (Not UDXL types, which had higher output.) They had to design and calibrate for one particular tape type, and UD is the one they generally used.
But you, the consumer, could buy higher priced or lower priced tapes than UD, from many different brands.

During recording, supposedly the 0db is the point you should not go above. This is not always true in practice, you can go higher with good quality tape.
In playback, the meters show the level playing from the tape.

If you recorded using exactly the same level: with a high output tape like Maxell UDXL-I, in playback the meters would read higher. A lower output tape like Maxell LN would show lower levels. Maxell UD, which was by price and quality between those two, should show about the same levels for record and play.

If yours is a three head deck, record listening to the "monitor" setting and listen to the instant playback, and bring the record levels up until you hear distortion at the loudest parts, then back off a bit. You want the most signal you can get on the tape without distorting. You can almost ignore the meters. Don't worry about the playback metering.
If yours is a two head deck, try recording higher, try even "pinning" the meters with good tape only. With any tape, do tests with higher and higher record levels, and in playback find how high a level you can really record without distortion during playback.

The higher level that you can record with, the lower the noise (hiss) will be on playback. And, the less problem with Dolby.

Since your playback levels look lower, it seems you are using a lower output tape. That's not necessarily bad. But find a Maxell UDXL-I and give it a try, and push those meters during recording to see what your deck can really do.

 

Thanks JohnO! That's great advice.

 

I like what John O says.
I use a Nakamichi BX300E
Being a 3 head MC its so easy when you can monitor and hear the recording.
I find that too high a level and
Saturation sets in.
Basically you lose clarity.
You can do it with a 2 head job .
Just make a test recording and play it back . Too soft, try again at a lower level.
The advice i recall years ago was , thst with a 2 head MC to get it set up for your favourite tape, and. Settle for that

 

Agree, you shouldn't be having this issue if the deck is set up properly.

 

Set recording levels from input (source). If the playback is notably different, that's a separate issue which may or may not need to be addressed due to factors mentioned above.

 

Thanks very much everybody. This is a new deck to me, a Denon DRS-810G and the playback level is definitely quieter when listening to the playback head during recording when compared to the incoming source. The tape I was using was a 110 minute Memorex chrome CD2. Recording with Dolby C engaged, and demagged, clean heads.

Sounds like I may need to have it calibrated or try some other tapes like the venerable TDK SA90.

 

The dolby level is the only thing on the meter that means something, although its in different positions on different decks its actually exactly the same in volume level across all of them.



Metals love to be driven a bit harder, on a philips scale around +6db, unless you want distortion keep any type 2 chrome tape peaking at 0db or 3db below the dolby level.

To calibrate it for recording the play heads have to be setup first with a reference tape done in a lab, only those are good enough.

 

If I can pull rank, I own the Nakamichi TX-1000 tape deck analyzer and the required test tapes. I calibrated hundreds of cassette decks back in the day. This is something I know about.

I'm sorry to disagree with some of the above posters but playback meter levels are mostly meaningless. Outside of setting Dolby level, which is generally an internal adjustment on a deck, the only reason the meters even move on playback is for your fun and enjoyment. I remember one deck - I think it was a B&O Beocord 5000 - that the meters didn't even work during playback.

The exception is Dolby level. You want a 400 Hz signal to record and play back at the double D, very visible in the picture above this post (@POE_UK got it right). That makes sure your Dolby NR is tracking correctly, getting rid of just the hiss and none of the highs. If your deck is calibrated properly, and one of the things a cassette deck tech will set up is Dolby level, then the meters should read the same in record and playback. But if they don't, forget about it, especially if you don't use Dolby NR.

I like POE_UK's post. He shows how goofy meters can be. I think his picture actually gives Yamaha decks a break. Their meter levels were weirder than sin. I remember early Yamaha cassette decks (maybe the TC-800GL?) having a Dolby level of around +7 VU. By recalibrating the meters themselves, you could take their Dolby level to 0 VU where it belonged. I loved making Pioneer and Yamaha decks record like Nakamichis. It was actually very easy to do. They didn't have the headroom of a Nak but at least their meters looked normal.

 

I suggest this easy azimuth adjustment trick, as your REC head may out of alignment with the PLAY head. While in record, monitor the play head. If your pre-amp has a mono switch, flip it to mono. If you do not have a mono switch, connect the cassette line out cable with a double Y to sum the L+R channels. This can be done by ear in mono mode, since both channels are combined, and phase differences become easily audible. (this adjustment can not be done in stereo mode)

Listen in mono mode tape monitor on

We want to adjust the REC head. Listen as you adjust the azimuth screw a little to the left, then a little to the right, we want maximum high frequency output, and quality. Choose left or right (flip a coin) If the high freqs deteriorate, turn the other way. As the high freqs increase in level, keep turning that way until the level begins to fall off, turn back slightly left or right to the point you're locked in. When the azimuth is off, the high frequencies will be reduced in level, and "phasy" sounding, a shrill or hollow effect. BTW azimuth error is a leading cause of Dolby pumping. Azimuth adjustment can also be done with test equipment, (recommended) but good ears are highly reliable for this adjustment.

This procedure aligns the deck to itself, but does not calibrate to other decks, nor to a calibrated tape.
The calibrated tape lines the PLAY head first, then the REC head to the PLAY head.

 

A lot of decks meters are way off, I listen test with the tape to be used and find the beyond peak then dial it back until it's where it sounds right.

 

Nice job POE_UK and ggergm.

 

You "can" adjust the azimuth with shop bought tapes, but even they are slightly different amongst record labels, i highly recommend you get a professional level tape, ive got one for my technics and pioneer decks that both use the philips reference of 0db of -3db below the dolby level.

0VU" = old Philips standard (160 nWb/m DIN). Many Pioneer decks use this as 0dB , on some decks this point is marked 0VU"

0dB = DIN Reference Level (250 nWb/m), which is equal +4 dB from 0VU.

Dolby Level (200 nWb/m ANSI), which is equal to +2.8 dB from 0VU, -1.2 dB from DIN Reference. All Nakamichi decks use this level as 0dB and some other decks too.

Demagnetising the heads 3 times a year is a good idea on 2 head decks, as magnetism can build up on top of the play/rec head and damage your recordings causing "dead spots" to your valuable recordings, you do not need to demagnetise a 3 head decks play record heads only the capstan, on 3 head decks pressing play/record a couple of times is enough to clear the heads of magnetism.

make a test tone CD with audacity with 2 head decks, a 4 minute 315hz and 4 minute 10khz tone, the 315hz tone to check the main level before recording level peaks, and 10khz tone to check the high frequencies levelling (bias), once youve done this the recordings can never go over what these peaks are. most 3 head decks have tones built in using the CAL button.

 

I knew this thread, like all like it, would go this way.
I don't disagree with anyone really, but everyone has a different view and a different take of what to do for much more advanced levels. Everyone's right (mostly ) but I don't think the op needs to go into that now.
Please consider the op's original question.

 

Before you can run, you must first learn to stand and walk.

 

JohnO's approach is largely the one that I used to take.

And in the end it's one's ears that tell the tale. If you hear distortion then back off the recording level slightly. If the tape will go louder then go louder as it will provide better playback.

And have fun!