Should I add a subwoofer?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Brian Gupton, Apr 15, 2014.

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  1. Earwax

    Earwax Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Paltz, NY
    Don't forget to take ALL the allowed tax write-offs from working at home. Note: buying vinyl doesn't count! But a percentage of your electrical bill does!
     
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  2. GreatTone

    GreatTone Forum Resident

    Location:
    Falls Church, VA
    The only place I could put a subwoofer is behind the speakers and it could be 8 inches from the back wall, but it's about 5 feet from the side...
     
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  3. GreatTone

    GreatTone Forum Resident

    Location:
    Falls Church, VA
    Since I work in advertising (think of all the music in commercials) and am a professional musician on the side, the vinyl is deductible!
     
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  4. gingerly

    gingerly Change Returns Success

    I have to agree here, and add that I've heard adding a sub mess up the great imaging you probably get from those speakers. Another possibility is that your farty bass could be partly due to your tube amp with the PM1 speakers and their 84db sensitivity when the bass kicks in. Hard to say.
     
  5. Earwax

    Earwax Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Paltz, NY
    Okay, you seem reasonably sane. I'll believe you. But still, you could slice carrot sticks while deciding what to play next.
     
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  6. Colin M

    Colin M Forum Resident

    There's no risk that the bass is feeding back through the turntable? As you say it's a vinyl issue.
     
  7. Earwax

    Earwax Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Paltz, NY
    Closer to corner is best. They also say dividing the wall length into odd segments 1/3, 1/5, 1/7 and placing the sub at one of those spots will work. If you get the bug, contact the sub company directly and get their advice. I've emailed some of my gear's companies and was floored by the thoughtfulness that went into their answers.
     
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  8. back2vinyl

    back2vinyl Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    I agree - I know the sub is only there to underpin the main speakers. But I still believe there's a problem with the REL specifically at low listening levels. On many amps, there used to be a loudness button so you could boost the bass at low listening levels, reflecting the human ear's lack of sensitivity to these frequencies. You can't do this with the REL - the maximum output from the sub is fixed at a very low level relative to the main speakers and the user has very little control over it, when using the high level inputs. In my opinion users should have the freedom to increase the volume of the sub to suit their own preferences, provided it's within safe limits, but that's simply not possible with the REL.

    I'm trying out a JL Audio Fathom next week and it will be interesting to see if that offers more flexibility.

    BTW crossovers have been mentioned a lot here. JL Audio told me they're working on a crossover that will be external to the sub so that only the low bass frequencies go to the sub and only the upper frequencies go to the main speakers. That would get over the problem of "farty" main speakers being overloaded with bass frequencies they can't handle. It could also solve a lot of the crossover problems that people complain of, in terms of getting their subs to blend seamlessly with the main speakers. You would no longer run the risk of having a hump where the two overlap or a hole where there's a gap between them.
     
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  9. Brian Gupton

    Brian Gupton Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Absolutely worth it. They aren't as good looking as treatments offered by some companies, but they aren't crazy expensive either.

    I've only had a chance to put a few of the tri traps in and man the difference was night and day. All of a sudden I can turn the music way up without being overwhelmed.
     
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  10. Earwax

    Earwax Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Paltz, NY
    Thanks. Did you have someone move around the room with a mirror so you could determine reflection points?
     
  11. Brian Gupton

    Brian Gupton Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Not yet. Still need to get some furniture out of the room before putting up the rest of the panels.
     
  12. Brian Gupton

    Brian Gupton Forum Resident Thread Starter

    So I ended up getting the REL Q401e from the same guy with the faulty T1. This one works great.

    Any advice on the settings I should use as a starting off point for the B&W PM1's?

    Here are the specs for the PM1:

    http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Downloads/Product/InfoSheet/ENG_FP30529_PM1_info_sheet.pdf
     
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  13. Brian Gupton

    Brian Gupton Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I ended up getting a good deal on a REL that actually works (the Q401e). Sounds amazing and I haven't even dialed it in yet. Not sure if it's the sub or the acoustic treatments I added, but the farty bass is mostly gone, at least when I tested "Seven Nation Army" (the song that was so farty I started considering a sub).
     
  14. Ntotrar

    Ntotrar Forum Resident

    Location:
    Tri-Cities TN
    Should I add a subwoofer? A: No.
     
  15. audioguy3107

    audioguy3107 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta, Georgia
    That is not informative or helpful whatsoever.
     
  16. Ntotrar

    Ntotrar Forum Resident

    Location:
    Tri-Cities TN
    Its a clear and non ambiguous answer. I once had subwoofers in all my systems. TV surround sound systems still have Subs (LFE). Stereo systems are now only 2.0. The added complication of a sub in a music only system detracts from the listening experience in my opinion. If only I could have the hours I spent futzing with subs returned to me! It is not impossible to integrate a subwoofer into a two channel audio system. My recommendation is to buy speakers that have adequate bass to begin with. Monitors are great for imagining and thats their compromise. If you require full range audio (and some don't) best buy a full range speaker. Outside of surround sound applications I see a sub as a patch at best.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
  17. Brian Gupton

    Brian Gupton Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I'm keeping the volume on the sub turned down fairly low. I never reall hear it per se. But I can feel that full thick wall of sound that was missing with only the PM1's.
     
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  18. Brian Gupton

    Brian Gupton Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I'm sure the futzing will start in a few days. :)
     
  19. Sneaky Pete

    Sneaky Pete Flat the 5 and That’s No Jive

    Location:
    NYC USA
    I say yes! Just place it with care and integrate it properly. If it is done right it will improve the imaging of your system. You shouldn't obviously notice it when it is on, but it should be very obvious when you switch it off.
     
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  20. Ntotrar

    Ntotrar Forum Resident

    Location:
    Tri-Cities TN
    No doubt they can be fun to play with. I keep a PSB sub series 1 in my closet. I bring it out to play on occasion. But its not really needed on my stereos...
     
  21. audioguy3107

    audioguy3107 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Ahhhh....that was much better!! :D J/K. Anyway, adding the complication of a sub can be problematic true, but if done properly with the correct subwoofer, room placement, crossover setting, and volume, I think they can integrate much better than most think (although it does take a lot of dialing in and performance is much better with stereo subs). In the context of Brian's original problem, helping him with a subwoofer with his B&Ws may be more helpful than recommending that he forget the sub and go buy a pair of 801 diamonds which would definitely solve his bass problem. The other thing is room acoustics can play havoc with bass, sub or not. My Avalon Acoustics fronts should go much deeper than they do in my room (same with a pair of B&Ws and Thiels I've owned), but I realized pretty quick that bass gets lost easily for whatever reason. Once I added a pair of REL B2......problem solved and believe me, they integrate perfectly....but of course it did take a lot of moving around and tweaking, but hey, that's part of the fun!

    -Buck
     
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  22. Ntotrar

    Ntotrar Forum Resident

    Location:
    Tri-Cities TN
    I have made it work also. My biggest gripe is often having to fiddle with the sub when changing genre. Whats good for Classical is not often good for Pop. ETC... My experience is running a sub on the high level inputs and having the "satellites" full range always seem to work best.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
  23. Earwax

    Earwax Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Paltz, NY
    Congrats! You're a busy dude! You will not get the REL set perfectly in one or two days -- it will take a while. At first you're going to want to hear it so you'll set it too loud. That's ok. Get it out of your system. Then you might set it too low! Anyway, I suggest starting about 12-15 inches from a side wall and hopefully it will be basically behind one of your main speakers. What I did was send bass heavy material to the sub and I disconnected my main speakers. I did this to really hear the sub so I could make sure the phase (0 - 180) was set correctly.

    You should read this: http://rel.net/support/rel-set-up/

    Good luck!
     
  24. Ntotrar

    Ntotrar Forum Resident

    Location:
    Tri-Cities TN
    Good luck!
     
  25. Earwax

    Earwax Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Paltz, NY
    Don't pay attention to distractions on the forum. You've got a great sub and you'll get it sorted out sonically speaking. You've got a lot of moving pieces with the new room treatments and the sub. You should make sure your main speakers are set properly (spacing, toe-in, etc.) and when the soundstage and imaging kick butt with the new room treatments...then get the sub blended in. And don't go and buy that woodshop butcher block turntable until you've got all your new stuff rocking 100%. :D
     
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