Should I add a subwoofer?

Ha! Well I'm off for the next 4 days and my only goal is to get this all dialed in and listen to a bunch of music.

 

Threw in a few more of the treated panels. Had to move the sub a few inches and turn it down a smidge. Listening to Tom Petty's "Echo" (one of my favs) and I must say, this current setup already sounds better than anything I've ever heard, including many $100k+ setup's.

I had started getting a bit down on the PM1's, but the sub makes it sound like a $15k speaker. Totally tamed the high frequencies too.

Room treatments make a huge difference. People need to start all hardware advice questions with "go spend $750 on a few real acoustic panels before you buy anything else." Then dial that stuff in. Amazed at the difference.

 

One tip I used from CNet's Steve Guttenberg was particularly helpful. When I was following the manual for initial placement, I remembered Guttenberg's article on subwoofer setup and placed the T2 at my listening position. I then walked around the perimeter of the room and listened for where the bass had the best balance of extension and clarity. That spot was on a side wall just in front of the speakers, so I placed the T2 there facing the other side wall and firing across the front of the speakers.

I set the crossover to just under my Epos speakers' lowest frequency (about 47 Hz). I had the hi/lo volume level around the 11 o' clock position. These settings provided the smoothest integration for me where the bass sounded like it was just from the regular speakers.

Guttenberg CNet article on subwoofer setup: http://www.cnet.com/news/how-to-set-up-a-subwoofer/

 

Two things: 1) I guess the answer to this thread's subject question is: YES! And, 2) Damn it! A record cleaning machine was next but now you've got me thinking about room treatments! And I'm so anal I'll probably have to get custom fabric to match the vibe of my listening room! You suck!

 

So one thing I'm realizing about the sub... on well recorded music, it effing shines. Just disappears into the music. But on poorly recorded albums, I'm getting all kinds of low frequency... feedback... if that's the right word. Led to endless fiddling but never got it quite right. Threw on some Floyd and all was right with the world again.

Lesson... I guess don't let crappy music make you think your system isn't set properly???

 

True. You might need to lower the volume one click and maybe raise the crossover one click and/or pull one inch away from side wall. It will go on like this for a while. Go outside and enjoy the weather. Stop in a little corner bar that has a jukebox and play a few tunes. When you get home your system will sound great.

 

Did you ever compare or read about products from RealTraps before buying from GIK? I ask only because I'm also considering room treatment and was wondering which merchant to go with.

 

I'm real happy with GIK. Even ordered extra fabric through them and received suggestions on how to build a custom corner trap. My corner trap is twice as wide as anything they sell.

They also were able suggest where in the room to look for certain problem frequncies that I was having issues finding.

 

Not really. I read somewhere (maybe here) that GIK made the best of the affordable traps. I gigure there isn't really a way to compare the quality/value of treatments anyway, so just went with GIK. I live in San Francisco and was surprised that no one local really stocks thus kinda stuff, but my experience with GIK was really nice.

One thing... The corner tri traps are bigger (on the wide side) than they appear. Honestly, these treatments are the one thing I'm confident I will never have buyer's remorse with. No need to guess if you can hear a difference, it's that big of a change.

They also sell stands to mount the panels on if you don't have a dedicated listening room and want to be able to easily move them to a closet when not in use. Even just one panel at the first reflection point will pay off nicely.

 

Finally got the extra furniture outta my listening room and about to start rearranging everything. I have concrete floors, but the subwoofer is currently sitting on carpet. When I got the carpet, I didn't want to spend a ton and just got something they had pre-cut. It doesn't quite go the width or length of my room.

I'm thinking of pulling the rug off the wall several feet, but that would mean that the subwoofer and rack would sit directly on the concrete.

1. Is sitting directly on concrete better for the sound of the sub anyway?
2. The wall the sub sits on is the wall shared with my neighbor. I've asked him a few times if my music gets loud for him. So far the answer has been "not at all", but that was before I added the sub. If the sub isn't sitting on carpet, is it likely to cause neighbor issues or will the fact that it's on concrete produce tighter bass that will allow the sub's volume to be lowered?

 

Remember, 2 months ago I didn't own a sub! A friend of mine placed a carpet square (12x12) under his sub. I'm not sure why but he's a finicky tinkerer so it must be for some improvement.

There's one to find out for certain!

It's a good idea to have carpet on the floor between the loudspeakers and the listening position. Otherwise there's a lot of reflections going on. As much as we want to get it dialed in over a weekend, it takes time. You must have noticed your gear can sound a little different depending on day or night, CD or LP, how much you're been listening, etc.

Ever yawn and all of sudden your ears open up? Amazing right? You didn't notice you were deaf before you yawned. 15 seconds after you yawned you were already used to it and it wasn't amazing anymore. Since I've been giving you "advice" I made a slight tweak to my sub's placement -- all of sudden I found myself zeroing in on something (in a song I've played several times) that I hadn't noticed before.

Ever see an absolutely drop-dead gorgeous woman? Well, there's a guy somewhere who's bored with her. Same with the guy who has a $500K audio system, there are things that "bug" him about his system. We have to face the fact that being human has it's issues! Go listen to someone's crummy stereo then go home home and listen to yours -- all will be right with the world.

 

I had issues with my sub causing disturbance to my neighbors both adjoining and downstairs. Then I tried placing the sub on this Auralex. All disturbances vanished! And, best of all, the sound improved (tighter bass).

http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_subdude/subdude.asp

 

Well, we'll see if he says anything. Thx for this. Might give it a try, but have an idea for hacking some together that I wanna try first to see if I can move the sub to just an inch or so in front of the mains without losing the thump.

 

Well, here's how it's looking. Just need to add the ceiling panels and then start dialing everything in. My speakers are 51" off the back wall, which is WAY more than I've ever tried before. So far sound stage is really deep.

 

My experience exactly. See my prior posts.

 

I just read reviews of this product on Amazon. It looks like $50 well spent!

 

Brian...you're hardcore! Your girlfriend must really love you -- you turned that room into a laboratory! I see your CDs, where's your vinyl?

 

My sub is a bit larger than 15". Is the 15" SubDude II going to be sufficient or do you think I need to go with the larger model?

 

What matters is the contact surface. My sub has 4 feet that are much closer together than the actual size of the bottom surface of the sub. So, if your sub has feet and they fit within a 15x15 square, the SD II should do. If not, go with the bigger model.

 

Vinyl is the entire top shelf, all purchased in the last 6 weeks. Yes, my fiancé rocks. Let's me blare my music till midnight even though the bedroom shares a wall.

By the way, just finished installing all of the acoustic panels. Let me tell you, don't skip the ceiling. What an effing difference. I'm totally converted to spending money on room treatments instead of components.

These $3k PM1's sound 100x better than the $8k+ B&W's I had before. In fact, every component in my current system is about 1/3 the customer of my old system, some WAY less. Yet this setup sounds 100x better and I haven't even dialed it in yet.

 

Fantastic! I'm glad you're digging your gear.

BTW, I was looking for a picture of a record cleaning machine and found the picture below. I'm posting it so you can see how this person positioned his subwoofer.

Now that you have me thinking about room treatments I did an experiment: I have French doors about 5 feet behind my listening position and I always wondered how all those panes of glass affect the sound. I haphazardly hung up a comforter to block the glass and it tightened up the imaging and even improved the tone of certain upper frequencies. Now I need to figure out to cover the doors in an appealing way -- maybe hang blinds on each door that can be raised and lowered. Stay tuned.

Oh, I pulled the trigger on an Okki Nokki II record cleaning machine. They're on Amazon, free shipping and no tax.

 

I cannot imagine there being much accurate bass coming from a subwoofer placed in a corner like that.

 

Even if you're not disturbing your neighbors, words can't express how immediately and dramatically Auralex pads (or similar decoupling devices) improve life in general, at least here at the House of Adverse Resonance. I'll never spike a speaker again.

 

In the REL setup guide they tell you to imagine a straight diagonal line going from corner to corner. Then they tell you to begin in the corner and move the sub out along the line until it sounds right. Then at that spot they say to turn the sub on its center axis until is sounds right(er?). All bets are off with this stuff -- every room is different. Hardwood, cement, wall to wall carpet, area rugs, bay windows, French doors, lots of windows, book cases on walls, almost no furniture in the room, etc., etc.

 

Of course it depends on an individuals room, but I've found that it is indeed harder to get accurate bass from a subwoofer placed in a corner like that. Corner placement like that can really reinforce room nodes and result in louder bass. I really found out the difference when Jim Smith voiced my room, his thinking is that the sub needs to be placed as close to your mains as possible to get the most seemless blend between your fronts and the sub. I used a Velodyne SMS-1 to graph results in different places in the room (I do have stereo subs BTW). Indeed the smoothest bass was with my RELs within an inch outside of my mains. My response is pretty much ruler flat down to about 17 HZ. I had more peaks and valleys with the subs closer to the corners where I started the placement.