Should we close our Audio Hardware section, yes or no?

I vote to keep it open. This is my favorite section. I myself ignore the offenders.

 

This is the best section of the forum. Just tell me who the naysayers are and I'll go punch them in the face.

Seriously, there is a world of great info on here and people like me who don't get to audition a ton of equipment can use all the comments here to help narrow down.

 

It just depends on your goals in running the site.

 

I would say that the non-physical media transition that many are considering (or possibly avoiding) definitely could be a bone of contention for some. Especially high-res downloads. But as others have stated, it's generally very well-behaved here. Look at ARS and every time high-res downloads are brought up, and then look at some of the posts there. It can get very heated.

This subject is going to get more traction in the next year or two, no doubt about it. I'm guessing that's there actually a fair chance that it's going to get a push next week. Maybe.

 

I don't read many of the posts in this section but I still stop by on a regular basis. Mostly I like to check other peoples opinion about equipment I currently own.

 

Sadly I think the real issue, is not thread crapping

With ME as many point out, Im many times only pointing out facts about proven human perceptions.

I see the issue, being several of the same dozen guys start rude remarks to me or anyone with a similar view along the lines of:

"Here he goes again with the same crap"

"You keep telling everyone what they can hear"

"You havent tried this or that so how do you know diddly about it"

Are some of YOU guys (( not you Steve )) so insecure in your beliefs about cables, cords, and outlets that me even hinting it could be perception, totally unrails your beliefs?


Are we to all simply agree on everything, or say nothing?

What fun is that?

Why not just start one big thread called:

All cables, cords and outlets make a night and day difference, anyone that disagrees, leave the forum"

 

I wonder if there shouldn't just be a separate section for Audio Controversies. That way, if somebody goes into A/B Tests, AC Cables, Interconnect Cables, Green Ink, Analog vs. Digital, CD File Accuracy, or anything like that, the discussion automatically gets moved over there.

This might not kill all the bitching, but I bet it would at least remove 60% or more of the usual strife.

I don't mind a reasonable discussion provided people can hold their tempers and knock back on the personal attacks.

C'mon, people now
smile at your brother
everybody get together
gotta love one another right now.

 

I'm interested in what that "number" is - how many complaints? Only 14 have voted for closure - "many" must be around that number.

Also, are the complainers regular posters to the hardware forum? That would be odd, because most seem to be able to hold their own in hardware.

If they are not regular posters in hardware, but are readers who would like to post there, but don't because they are afraid that a bitch-fest would result, then that's clearly a problem we must address. No one should be "frightened" to post in the hardware forum. Perhaps we need some stronger guidelines around protecting new posters, or those who are simply asking for some advice (those threads are a bit ho-hum).

If they are simply drive-bys from "music", then their complaint should be given little weight.

I've been in many bun-fights on the hardware forum and they are a good learning experience. We can argue badly, or we can argue well - and we can get better if we are in the first set. Many times I've had to rethink what I am saying to try to present my point of view in another way to be able to move the conversation along.

One of the really boring things about the music forum for me is it's often simply a statement of personal taste. This band is great, that singer is weak and so on.

I love the audio hardware forum. If it were closed, I would definitely leave.

 

The problem many have with me is NEVER rudeness or name calling. I never say anyone is wrong totally or cant hear or has a low resolution system, as ive been told MANY times.

Im totally polite even to the A-holes that usually "cause" the thread to get locked.

I think what is really problematic is some are so thick skinned they only want YES responces, or people who totally agree, or they call it a thread crap, and the thread goes downhill.


Many seem to want NO debate or discussion or analyzing of anything.

Simply they want to say something is awesome and only hear others agree.

Any idea that even mildly different or at odds with their opinion is not discussed, but rudely commented on for the most part.

There seems to be only one answer for some, and no room for any other view, or even a possible reason or discussion as to why or how.

Many times im simply playing devils advocate as I even say in my posts, because some of the "night and day" descriptions get silly after a while.

 

How about in asterisks ** Anyone not in agreement dont post**


I have no problem staying off of a thread if asked or if the intention is known to be a closed type topic where the OP simply wants confirmation that they made a good purchase or choice.

Many posts seem to be "open" to various comments so I comment.

Perhaps even better...


*** All cable (( brand name here )) lovers post here, no negative comments at all please ***

It works on the music forum mostly.


**** All van halen fans chime in***

 

Because it's in the rules, here.

Steve had posted the ABX tests rules, again (I'm taking a guess it's not a coincidence). Btw, the arguments it talks about are the same exact arguments that I've seen on ARS and it can get really nasty - I let myself get roped into one on ARS myself, stupid me. I won't make that mistake again.

I've even gotten into some heated discussions here as well, although not too bad (possibly with you, but I don't recall 100%).

You're right that it would get boring if everyone just agreed on everything all the time. But there's a good way to constructively criticize (and take that criticism positively) and there's a bad way. On both ends. I'm not going to say I'm immune because I am certainly not - I've lost my cool a few times, here. The ongoing challenge for me is to discuss like an adult, with the understanding that 1) we aren't the other person and will never fully be in their shoes and 2) the reverse.

 

I’ve become an unregenerate addict/participant in the forum only in the past several months, so I lack perspective on the deeper history of conflicts here. But I’m puzzled about what recent downward spiral(s) may have inspired requests to shut down such an active and overwhelmingly upbeat set of conversations. I certainly haven’t witnessed any egregious trollery lately.

I’m seeing 97 people currently logged in or reading in the Audio Hardware section on this Sunday evening. That’s pretty lively and it would be a shame to see the lights go out.

A few hours earlier I was reading a current threat started by a guy who was enthusing about the improvements he heard via new interconnects, and the back and forth was getting pretty persnickety between fairul relentless skeptics and wire adherents, but it really wasn’t that bad. And indeed, the OP’s kickoff post had opened the door to the possibility of psychoacoustic effects on the perceived improvement — so a touch of skepticism seemed like fair game in the mix. But my real point is, despite various battle-hardened opponents suggesting that their debate enemies should zip it and give it a rest, etc., the whole thing was pretty darn civil and polite if not exactly congenial. And that seems to be about as bad as it gets around here, in my admittedly novice experience, although I’m sure there are some hair-raising worst-case stories as well.

 

In fact the OP even said something to that effect, So I assumed it was to go both ways.

 

Kevin,

Allow me a bit of constructive criticism as an observer of your posts. It would be a public service to mention your opinion about human perceptions every once and a while. The issue, however, is that myself and many friends I talk to on the board get tired of your mentioning this in every thread on cables, gear, etc. It's tiring and I think at this point all members are aware that placebo effect and other human perceptions play a role.

If you could politely and diplomatically lay out your opinion in one thread and keep it there then I think several benefits would accrue:

**The hardware forum would treat you more kindly.
**Better discussion would occur in cable threads since the perception comments almost always lead to a derail.
**Folks would respect your restraint and diplomacy and you would score some goodwill points.

So I'm trying to help you as a long time member with this advice while also keeping a venue for your opinions but just located in one thread.

I honestly think if you did that then you would be happier, many of us would be happier and the Hardware section would be a better community.

Is that not a reasonable request?

Lee

 

Heck no, please don't close it.

The imp in me sometimes gets a kick out of the food fights in cable threads.

But in all seriousness, even though I consider myself a modest mid-fi guy with no claims to above-average hearing, I do still appreciate audiophile commentary and opinion. And disagreement, for that matter.

Plus there are also the very valuable discussions about set-up, configurations, etc.

Long live the hardware forum!

 

I like the section and find it useful to have conversations with other folks about products I am intrerested in but haven't had the chance to audition personally. Plus, I really like the pictures people post of their gear and setups. Also, there are quite a few people onboard with very extensive and useful knowledge to share about hardware setups, arrangements, vibration control, and other things we can try to improve our systems. Barry Diament comes to mind as a great example, but there are many others from the professional audio and studio world.

I find differences in philosophy stimulating, but I must admit, a lot of same old tired cliches get trotted out time after time, which of course won't change anyone's mind. But there are those who keep trying with their crusade, hoping they can score some kind of virtual victory. They want to engage in discussion but will never concede a point or allow themselves to learn anything in the course of debate. Maybe instead of closing the section, the gorts could crack down harder on those kind of people, or those who get abusive or insulting whilst arguing, or who are obviously there simply to provoke acrimonious debate while they sit back, eat their popcorn, and enjoy the fireworks. I think what is happening is that with the objectivist vs. subjectivist debate being banned from the forum, people try to sneak it in under some guise or another, because that's all they really want to talk about, and all that matters to them, i.e., confirming their view of reality and justifying their prejudices.

 

Ive never lost my cool. Im never mad, nor upset with a good debate or argument. I think I lose a lot of faith, when after a couple paragraph long post that ive even looked up things about and put effort into, someone will reply back:

"More psychoacoustics crap from kevintomb again, countdown to threadlock"

THOSE kinda comments are WHAT close the thread. Not a well thought out different view or debate.

 

How do people even remember? The few heated discussions I've had with others here are out of my mind within a week. I'd have to write down usernames because, if the person changed their avatar, I would never even remember that was the person I was arguing with a month earlier.

I've read many of your posts - I know because you haven't changed your avatar. But if we've battled, I don't even remember it anymore - it's pretty much reset to zero every time I read a post from you...or from anyone else for that matter.

 

^

 

As you point out, that mix is fairly unique. That may be one of the reasons that I find your hardware forum one of the easiest to read, and why it seems to have a higher than usual level of interesting information and experienced opinion.

I'm not sure if or how you can avoid the occasional religious battle over some minutiae in any internet forum. From my perspective, however, that's what those threads look like. In fairness, some of the occasional arguments between the less conflict avoidant members (Yay! Euphemism!) have even been fairly educational.

I'd hate to see this resource go away because the small portion of unpleasant cacophony had rendered the rest unenjoyable.

 

Absolutely Lee, but me completely staying out of the posts will not stop many others.

And yes I see its boring for me to repeat the same facts over and over and I dont want to tire you or anyone with them ( sincerely )

My only intention ever, was to understand why several forum members, years ago, countered what you said in bold.....Many are not aware of these effects. My first post commenting on this, was in dismay as to how several had no idea these well know facts existed. Figuring as how I wrote a paper on this exact subject years back, I tried to add my expertise on this subject, as ive read over a dozen books on these topics, and its interesting to me.

No ill intent was ever part of my reasoning for posting.

 

My fear would be that the 14 are key participants who post frequently with advice based on their experience but wind up getting shot down repeatedly by those with less experience with different brands of gear (and sometimes no experience with the gear but strong theoretical opinions). And I do recall some posts that verged on questioning the integrity of posters they disagree with . I do think dissent should be encouraged as disagreement encourages others to refine their argument. But I don't like to read the same point over and over again in the same thread by the same person. My feeling is make your point and move on unless another post raises a related issue that you have first hand knowledge about. Some people seemingly like to reach for the popcorn and enjoy the fighting even when they have no interest in the topic....but such entertainment is not the point of the forum.

 

If the 16 that voted to close it would just use their Ignore List then they would be happy. Can't let a few unhappy apples ruin the barrel for the rest imo of course.

 

16 individuals need to close their web browser and go outside

 

I vote to keep it open.

One of these days I might buy myself another hifi. If and when I do, I might want to take pictures of it and post them in the "Show us your system" thread. How am I supposed to do that if you close the hardware section? Hmmm?