Simon & Garfunkel remasters: first three albums are noticeably compressed

Are you confusing "remix" and remaster? Dynamic compression added during mastering to digital where the low volume parts are raised in volume (resulting squashed dynamic range) will sound terrible to an informed listener (under familiar conditions) compared to a proper mastering effort.

The debate in this thread is related to a mastering effort which is quite good versus a couple of unique mastering efforts from the mid 80s and late 80s. The added reverb mentioned recently on the late 80s mastering could settle this issue.

I'll check my original mastering for a fade up on 'Homeward Bound' (from PSR&T).

 

I am not sure that is valid. Here are my reasons:

1) the earliest Columbia/CBS family mastering's pre-1985 almost always had pre-emphasis. The plethora of freq's that increases will falsely add to the DR range
2) Most 80's CD's had the pot's turned down for mastering, especially the Columbia/CBS family. While I'm a fan of their masterings from that era they purposely
allowed a huge amount of headroom.
3) The DR algorithm unfairly penalizes decent or better bass. While is a OK tool to have in the belt is is no where near definitive.
4) Regardless of how much experiences one has with them waveforms don't contain enough of the overall data needed to make anywhere near a definitive interruption.

I am sure Mr Hoffman could double the amount of items on above list easily. Since he'll likely not see this thread we can ask another in his profession, @Plan9 perhaps you can validate, expand on above, and add items as well.

back2vinyl, sure you can attempt to go with what you feel is a preponderance of the information you do have, however any determination you make is based on an incomplete data set. In addition you seem heck [is hell allowed here?] bent on proving your assumption therefore as with all humans, you are subject to bias.

 

There is a slight increase in volume on the acoustic guitar on the left and details are veiled overall in clear and convincing contrast to the detail on the box set mastering. The left guitar comes in at full volume too.

*There are a couple Japan for Europe pressings on eBay. Those would be the very first for that market. I'm not sure if there is a Japan for Japan prior to the 25DP. I'm also not sure if there is a US market before the earliest DADC, but I doubt it. No "pre-emphasis" involved here in any event.

 

Played original 60s Lp, Sundazed LP plus same tracks from 'Old Friends' which contains the 1997 remixes for the first time. There is a hint of compression on both vinyl editions. The original sounds slightly better but essentially very close. The digital remixes appear to emulate the original sound rather well but are a little more open/dynamic. I would assume from this that the original mixdown tape contained some compression that is not confined to a 'cutting master' . The rediscovered tape used by Sundazed was IIRC from a 'not for use' can so is either the original master or safety copy and not something used to cut LPs.

 

Very sorry jh901 but I don't think I'm quite clear what you're saying. First you say there's a slight increase in volume in the acoustic guitar on the left, which sounds like you're saying there's a fade-in, but then you also say it comes in at full volume. When the track starts, with the acoustic guitar in the left channel, does it almost instantaneously fade up to full volume as with the sample I posted yesterday, or is it a "hard" entry?

Also, is it possible to say yet whether your CD has the reverb?

I'm wondering if I can persuade you to upload some sample to Dropbox or something.

 

As above, it wasn't the master.

 

No! I meant remasters not remixes. Wrong choice of words on my part. Sorry! My point was that no matter what I thought may have sounded better, the majority of people in the room liked the compressed versions better. Just an interesting observation that's all.

 

I did a forum search and found a very long thread from years ago about PSR&T , which I dimly recall seeing at the time. It was a rather heated discussion because it was about the Audio Fidelity PSR&T and someone said their tests showed it was from exactly the same digital source as the old Columbia CD (same one that jh901 has), but with some tweaking to the EQ. That aside - and PLEASE let's not reopen that discussion here! - some useful information emerged.

First, it turns out that several other CD issues share the same mastering as the one that jh901 has. They include the CBS Made in Japan for Europe issue number CDCBS62825, which I should be able to obtain without any trouble here in the UK. They also include the Japanese 32DP and 25DP issues. All have the same EAC levels as jh901's disc (which I understand is US Columbia CK 9363, “Made in USA – Digital Audio Disc Corp.” stamped on clear plastic ring at centre of disc, matrix code DIDP 20199 11A1). The levels once again are:

Track 1: 60.6 %
Track 2: 95.8 %
Track 3: 70.3 %
Track 4: 66.4 %
Track 5: 68.8 %
Track 6: 68.0 %
Track 7: 70.8 %
Track 8: 56.6 %
Track 9: 62.7 %
Track 10: 57.2 %
Track 11: 70.5 %
Track 12: 41.7 %

If anyone has any of these discs, the questions so far unanswered are: do they have the quick fade-up on the opening of Homeward Bound (almost certainly yes) , and do they have reverb (almost certainly no)? Also, if anyone could post DR numbers for this mastering, it might not give us a definitive answer to the compression question but it would be a useful pointer and could tell us whether it's worth exploring or not.

If no one's able to help, I can easily obtain a copy of one of these CDs but the only problem is it will take a number of days.

 

Meanwhile, just switching for a moment to Wednesday Morning 3AM, I received another CD of this is in the mail today. (Like the others, it cost next to nothing apart from the postage.) It’s an early Made in Japan for Europe issue notable for having the words Historic Reissue at the top left of the front. It’s on the CBS label, catalogue number CDCBS 63370 and also has the following numbers in brackets: CS 9049 and DIDP 10194. It has no mention of Sony anywhere and it doesn’t even have a barcode.

I can give more details or show pictures if anyone wants these but the trouble with this CD is that it has the different mix with Paul’s voice amplified and centred, almost as if he were trying to squeeze Art out of the picture. Incidentally, this CD has exactly the same mastering as one I received last week, number 463375 2 on the CBS label but marked Sony Music Collector’s Choice and dated 1996. The peak levels for both these CDs are:

Track Peak [ CRC32 ] [W/O NULL]
01 71.9 [47DD418A] [438208A1]
02 56.1 [3B042024] [4A4C1553]
03 60.8 [58084C6F] [B572A498]
04 65.8 [376F85C4] [B04E9F62]
05 60.1 [D5A02B35] [BD2F82B1]
06 64.9 [9F9A99BE] [B3B08AE9]
07 50.6 [14F585EE] [3E60F0E9]
08 51.4 [81EADAC1] [7D05B4A9]
09 60.7 [1BB5BE63] [14B56785]
10 50.0 [86804A6B] [D92297B5]
11 62.9 [FE9564CD] [65FDF492]
12 45.3 [5C920A39] [B44BC63F]

Anyway, the point is, although it’s a different mix, I did a DR check just to see if anything interesting turned up, and I found this mastering had about 1dB more dynamic range than the 2014 remaster on every track and overall. Not a huge difference, I agree - I very much doubt I'd be able to hear it. But what struck me is that we now have three mixes of this CD - the Made in Japan Historic Reissue, Vic Anesini’s 2001 remix and the 2014 remaster - and on every track on every CD, the 2014 remaster is always the one with the least dynamic range. I know some will protest that they’re different mixes, as indeed they are, but even so, it can't be just a coincidence that whatever the album, whatever the mix and whatever the track, it’s always (out of all the discs I’ve tested so far) the 2014 remasters that are the least dynamic.

Here are the DR numbers for the three different versions of Wednesday Morning 3AM:

1. Made in Japan Historic Reissue

DR Peak RMS Duration Track

DR11 -2.86 dB -15.66 dB 2:47 01-You Can Tell the World
DR11 -5.01 dB -18.12 dB 2:11 02-Last Night I Had the Strangest Dream
DR10 -4.31 dB -16.46 dB 2:45 03-Bleecker Street
DR12 -3.63 dB -18.49 dB 2:49 04-Sparrow
DR11 -4.41 dB -17.82 dB 2:39 05-Benedictus
DR12 -3.75 dB -19.26 dB 3:08 06-The Sound of Silence
DR10 -5.92 dB -18.22 dB 2:48 07-He Was My Brother
DR11 -5.78 dB -18.35 dB 2:26 08-Peggy-O
DR10 -4.33 dB -16.73 dB 2:07 09-Go Tell It on the Mountain
DR11 -6.02 dB -19.56 dB 2:50 10-The Sun Is Burning
DR12 -4.02 dB -17.76 dB 2:53 11-The Times They Are A-Changin'
DR11 -6.86 dB -19.22 dB 2:15 12-Wednesday Morning, 3 A.M.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of tracks: 12
Official DR value: DR11

2. Vic Anesini’s 2001 remix

DR Peak RMS Duration Track

DR12 -0.10 dB -12.98 dB 2:49 01-You Can Tell the World
DR11 -0.13 dB -13.31 dB 2:13 02-Last Night I Had the Strangest Dream
DR10 -0.10 dB -12.62 dB 2:47 03-Bleecker Street
DR12 -0.10 dB -15.08 dB 2:51 04-Sparrow
DR10 -0.10 dB -14.61 dB 2:42 05-Benedictus
DR12 -0.10 dB -15.18 dB 3:09 06-The Sound of Silence
DR10 -1.02 dB -13.93 dB 2:53 07-He Was My Brother
DR11 -0.86 dB -15.00 dB 2:29 08-Peggy-O
DR11 -0.10 dB -12.83 dB 2:09 09-Go Tell It on the Mountain
DR11 -0.10 dB -14.29 dB 2:50 10-The Sun Is Burning
DR12 -0.10 dB -15.84 dB 2:55 11-The Times They Are A-Changin'
DR12 -0.17 dB -14.52 dB 2:24 12-Wednesday Morning, 3 A.M.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of tracks: 12
Official DR value: DR11

3. 2014 remaster

DR Peak RMS Duration Track

DR10 -0.83 dB -12.77 dB 2:50 01-You Can Tell The World
DR10 -1.92 dB -14.14 dB 2:14 02-Last Night I Had the Strangest Dream
DR9 -1.13 dB -13.01 dB 2:48 03-Bleecker Street
DR11 -0.18 dB -14.87 dB 2:51 04-Sparrow
DR9 -1.81 dB -14.94 dB 2:42 05-Benedictus
DR11 -0.63 dB -15.08 dB 3:09 06-The Sounds of Silence (Acoustic Version)
DR9 -1.42 dB -13.16 dB 2:53 07-He Was My Brother
DR10 -2.13 dB -13.83 dB 2:29 08-Peggy-O
DR9 -0.67 dB -11.97 dB 2:09 09-Go Tell It on the Mountain
DR10 -1.72 dB -14.78 dB 2:52 10-The Sun Is Burning
DR11 -0.34 dB -13.98 dB 2:55 11-The Times They Are A-Changin'
DR10 -1.53 dB -14.01 dB 2:13 12-Wednesday Morning, 3 A.M.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of tracks: 12
Official DR value: DR10

 

It's not "just a coincidence". Compression was often used heavily in mixing at the time, and often less so during later remixing. The 2014 remaster uses the original mix. That's it.

Also, that CD is covered here:

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/simon-garfunkel-wednesday-morning-3am-mastering-error.139039/

 

Yes, it's true, we really need to oompare the same mix if we're to know for sure where the compression was added. From that thread you quoted it seems Wednesday Morning 3AM will never help us because the original mix doesn't appear on any early CD. Except, there's a post right at the end of that thread from Mal who had something he thought might be interesting:

I'll pick up a copy of that and see if it shows anything.

 

Calling @Mal

 

foobar2000 1.3.6 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2015-01-21 14:51:54
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Simon And Garfunkel / Wednesday Morning, 3 AM (982639 2)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR11 -2.15 dB -14.65 dB 2:50 01-You Can Tell The World
DR11 -2.53 dB -16.09 dB 2:14 02-Last Night I Had The Strangest Dream
DR10 -3.04 dB -14.88 dB 2:48 03-Bleeker Street
DR13 -1.58 dB -16.95 dB 2:52 04-Sparrow
DR10 -3.60 dB -16.53 dB 2:42 05-Benedictus
DR12 -0.07 dB -16.30 dB 3:08 06-The Sound Of Silence
DR10 -1.82 dB -14.60 dB 2:53 07-He Was My Brother
DR10 -3.22 dB -15.47 dB 2:29 08-Peggy-O
DR10 -0.51 dB -13.99 dB 2:09 09-Go Tell It On The Mountain
DR11 -3.11 dB -16.98 dB 2:52 10-The Sun Is Burning
DR12 -1.34 dB -16.02 dB 2:54 11-The Times They Are A Changing
DR11 -1.45 dB -16.14 dB 2:16 12-Wednesday Morning 3 A.M.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of tracks: 12
Official DR value: DR11
Samplerate: 44100 Hz
Channels: 2
Bits per sample: 16
Bitrate: 1411 kbps
Codec: CDDA
================================================================================

 

This is a really interesting thread...I'll just say that, in my experience, I have only run across a few cases where a newer mastering has more dynamic range than an 80's/early 90's CD pressing. Truthfully, for an album of this type & vintage, the DR values are a little on the low side regardless of version...

 

EAC peaks for Wednesday Morning, 3AM - SONY (UK) 982639 2 (1991)

78.1
74.7
70.4
83.3
66.0
99.1
81.0
69.0
94.2
69.9
85.7
84.6

 

What's really interesting is what drives the DR figures. Is there a correlation with better sound? The newer mastering work from the audiophile labels is astounding these days. Recent mastering efforts from the likes of Anesini easily beats vintage.

 

It is my belief that certain DR #'s do correlate directly to bad or rather Non-Dynamic sound. Example if the DR rating for an entire album or collection is say 6 or below then I know personally I will not like it. I know what I like and what I don't.

Conversely, just because an album has a DR rating of over let's say 11 in no way means it is good sounding. It only states it is Dynamic.

Here are my beefs with DR Ratings:

1) The DR algorithm unfairly penalizes any semblance of a decent low end. So let say a 1980's mastering for whatever reason eliminated the low end and a newer mastering restores what was on the master tapes. Even though the new mastering was not Dynamically Compressed it will have a lower DR rating. Might be 1 lower , possibly 2 or even 3 if the bass is really excellent. My feeling is that is 100% totally not fair.

2) A CD with pre-emphasis that is ripped to a computer, then run through the DR tool or the Foobar plugin will unfairly receive a higher DR rating than it deserves. Reason for that is pre-emph, which is not removed in this all too normal scenario, "artificially" boosts the high end, etc....

3) A CD from a high gen source with excessive hiss might too unfairly receive a higher DR rating that it deserves.

To recap a excessively low DR rating for those who want Dynamic Range will always be "bad", however a high DR rating has zero bearing on if something will sound "good"

Lastly, a DR rating is not the be all end all whether as a positive or negative determiner, it should mearly be used as single tool in the belt and never as an absolute. Those who do use the DR rating that way will miss out on far more excellent masterings than bad ones.

Please refer to 1st line of my signature in case I left out an IMHO or 2

 

The two (DR value & better sound) are related, but that relationship varies. All other things being equal, I'll take a more dynamic copy over one that is less so. I'd say a better sounding mastering trumps dynamic range in most cases, but where the difference is acute (old DR 14, new DR 8 for example), no amount of "good" mastering is going to make up for that level of compression.

It's somewhat subjective though- there are some that think that the "punchiness" and "detail" that compression brings to a recording is great- to which I say, have at it. I prefer a little bit more air & space in my recordings.

When you're talking about differences of 1-2 dB between versions, your like or dislike is probably based more on mastering choices other than that small amount of compression.

 

I agree with the first paragraph 100%. The second however is not something I personally like as for me Dynamic Compression always reduces the ceiling thus air and space as well. I am referring of course only to compression of the dynamic kind performed in the mastering phase and not compression during recording that as SH has said is "good", "needed" and has been used since "1930"

 

Agreed- I was just stating (and correctly I think) that the use of compression during mastering is a choice that, although I tend to dislike it, is more or less valid to achieve a certain sound. I think it gets less valid when you move into the realm of remasters and start to produce masterings that sound markedly different from the originals...you're than starting to travel down the road of revisionist history.

 

I have the 2007 boxed set (the one with 5CDs and a DVD of the concert in central park). I'm very content with it and I know some of it is remixed. Amazon UK have the new set for around £40 or thereabouts, question is, do I really need it? I have all the original UK LPs and a couple of US ones, is there really any reason for me to buy the new set, apart from getting the original mixes on CD? (Sorry if this is slightly off-topic...)

 

Oh no! I just ordered this online yesterday evening and it turns out I needn't have bothered. What a waste of £1.99!

Seriously, thanks a million, Mal. I guess the only thing that's missing now is whether this 982639 2 CD is the original mix of Wednesday Morning 3AM, like the 2014 remaster, or whether it's the remix with Paul's voice ramped up centre-stage and Art's voice sidelined. Is it possible for you to say? Not to worry if the CD's buried somewhere - mine should arrive in a couple of days.

Even if it's the original mix, I agree with all the comments here about the quality of the mastering being more important than a dB or two of dynamic range. I also agree with ricks that you gave to be careful with DR ratings. They can be useful if you're sure you're comparing like with like but to his list I'd add another case where they can give a false impression, and that's where one mastering has a tiny bit of peak limiting and the other doesn't. Even trimming just one single peak in a track can bring down its DR rating relative to another track that might actually have more analogue compression.

 

Not a waste of £1.99 - great sounding CD. I have to assume it's the original mix - haven't heard the 2014.

 

Thanks again, Mal - in that case, I'll look forward to hearing it. I'll confirm the mix when it arrives.

 

A bit off topic but talking of DR ratings, I think I can show you something quite funny. So far I've picked up two Wednesday Morning 3AM CDs from the UK and they are musically identical to one another. Here are the DR numbers for both of them, and as you can see all the peaks, all the RMS numbers and all the track durations are identical. But spot the error:


This is the Historic Reissue:

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR11 -2.86 dB -15.66 dB 2:47 01-You Can Tell the World
DR11 -5.01 dB -18.12 dB 2:11 02-Last Night I Had the Strangest Dream
DR10 -4.31 dB -16.46 dB 2:45 03-Bleecker Street
DR12 -3.63 dB -18.49 dB 2:49 04-Sparrow
DR11 -4.41 dB -17.82 dB 2:39 05-Benedictus
DR12 -3.75 dB -19.26 dB 3:08 06-The Sound of Silence
DR10 -5.92 dB -18.22 dB 2:48 07-He Was My Brother
DR11 -5.78 dB -18.35 dB 2:26 08-Peggy-O
DR10 -4.33 dB -16.73 dB 2:07 09-Go Tell It on the Mountain
DR11 -6.02 dB -19.56 dB 2:50 10-The Sun Is Burning
DR12 -4.02 dB -17.76 dB 2:53 11-The Times They Are A-Changin'
DR11 -6.86 dB -19.22 dB 2:15 12-Wednesday Morning, 3 A.M.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of tracks: 12
Official DR value: DR11


And this is the Sony Music Collector’s Choice:

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR11 -2.86 dB -15.66 dB 2:48 01-You Can Tell the World
DR11 -5.01 dB -18.12 dB 2:11 02-Last Night I Had the Strangest Dream
DR10 -4.31 dB -16.46 dB 2:45 03-Bleecker Street
DR12 -3.63 dB -18.49 dB 2:49 04-Sparrow
DR10 -4.41 dB -17.82 dB 2:39 05-Benedictus
DR12 -3.75 dB -19.26 dB 3:08 06-The Sound of Silence
DR10 -5.92 dB -18.21 dB 2:48 07-He Was My Brother
DR11 -5.78 dB -18.35 dB 2:26 08-Peggy-O
DR10 -4.33 dB -16.73 dB 2:07 09-Go Tell It on the Mountain
DR10 -6.02 dB -19.56 dB 2:49 10-The Sun Is Burning
DR12 -4.02 dB -17.76 dB 2:53 11-The Times They Are A-Changin'
DR11 -6.86 dB -19.13 dB 2:14 12-Wednesday Morning, 3 A.M.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of tracks: 12
Official DR value: DR11


If you look at the individual tracks, you can see there's a mis-match in the case of Benedictus. Although its peak and RMS numbers are identical in both CDs, it scores a DR of 10 in one CD and a DR of 11 in the other.

Curious, I opened both versions of Benedictus in Adobe Audition and studied the waveforms. They were identical. Just to be sure, I checked the EQ of both with Voxengo CurveEQ and they were identical. It’s clear that the tracks are digitally identical. But there was one small and seemingly irrelevant difference: the position of the track breaks. With the Historic Reissue, the track breaks were arranged such that this track had about 1 second of silence at the beginning and about two seconds at the end, while the Sony Collector’s Choice had virtually no silence at the beginning and about 3 seconds at the end.

Just for fun I took the Sony Collector’s Choice version (the one with no silence at the beginning) and inserted 1 second of silence at the beginning. And guess what – its DR rating jumped from 10 to 11. Inserting even more silence, however, made no further difference, nor did changing the amount of silence at the end.

So there you go – if you want to raise your DR rating, find a track with no silence at the beginning and stick in a second of nothingness. Job done!