Sinatra / Capitol Sound Quality and General Discussion - Come Dance with Me (released 1959)*

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by serge, Nov 15, 2009.

  1. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    On CD? None that I can think of. On LP and tape? Yes. It was the standard-issue mix for over 25 years.
     
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  2. shicorp

    shicorp Senior Member

    Location:
    Austria
    I was afraid. I guess there is most likely a damage on the UK dub tape...
     
  3. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    I just checked the 1998 UK "20 Classic Tracks" CD, and it's actually a clone of the 1987 USA CD for that track, so it's not cut off, but it's not the mix you are after.
     
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  4. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    @Muzyck supplied a clip of the title track from an N5 stereo LP, and it's now posted on the comparison page. (Direct audio link here.) Note that this LP is an early pressing that uses the defective stereo mix that was replaced around 1960/1961.

    Also, I forgot to thank @jtaylor for the photos I used on the same page: Come Dance with Me - recorded 1958 Stereo Releases ».

    Moving on to the side two opener, "Saturday Night," I have 17 releases now posted at that same link. (Thanks to @Arkoffs . @Muzyck , @rangerjohn , @DJ WILBUR , Rudy, and @AxeD for contributing clips.)

    I chose "Saturday Night" intentionally, as it has a curious release history in stereo. The common stereo mix (the second one) was in use from about 1960-1983, and seems to be fully intact for the (poorly mastered) MFSL release of 1983, but then by the time the UK Dell LPs -- which were sourced from the USA tapes -- were released in 1984, something happened and, apparently, the song was replaced on the LP master with a new mix, new version, new....something. The replacement version seems to be a composite of two tapes, poorly reassembled to create a new "master," with some sort of splice or crossfade happening right as Frank's vocal starts, and with the left channel panned in considerably toward the center, putting the saxes very nearly in the middle, rather than their usual "hard left" position. It's a strange new version, whatever's going on. That new version appears on the 1984 UK LP, a 1987 Australian 2-CD compilation called The Frank Sinatra Collection (not sampled on my site), the 2009 USA "From the Vaults" LP, and both of the 2015 releases (LP and HD). In other words, every non-remixed version that is (likely) sourced from USA tapes contains this new, oddball mix/edit/composite/whatever.

    For the curious, here's the common stereo mix, sourced from a c. 1977 SM-series LP pressing: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1958_-_Come_Dance_with_Me_2_files/SaturdayNightSM-GAIN_01-17.wav , and here's the "new" version that started cropping up in 1984, sourced from the earliest release I've found with this mix, the 1984 UK "Dell" LP: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1958_-_Come_Dance_with_Me_2_files/SaturdayNightUK84-GAIN_01-15.mp3 . Clearly, the saxes and rhythm are pushed way into the center on this 1984 version, and on the later versions that are not remixes, i.e, that 1987 Australian CD, 2009 LP, 2015 LP and HD. (Thanks to @mikrt17 for first bringing up this odd mix, much earlier in this thread.)

    EDIT: By the way, this is yet more evidence that the 1984 UK "Dell" LPs were cut from digital dubs of USA masters, while the 1998 UK "Dell" CDs, with a few exceptions, were cut from existing UK copy tapes.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2016
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  5. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Funny review I stumbled upon at Musicstack:
    <<
    Review

    A monster swinger, this was Sinatra's biggest seller of the 1950s, a hyper album with the great Billy May that turned romantic songs into frenetic dance floor stompers. Elvis sounds positively neutered next to this hopped-up ode to limitless libidos.>>
    :laugh:
     
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  6. profholt82

    profholt82 Resident Blowhard

    Location:
    West Michigan
    Does anyone know if the 12 o'clock rainbow mono has added reverb on this one?
     
  7. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    To my knowledge, none of the stereo-released titles had reverb added to their mono editions beyond what was on the original mono release. In other words, no circa 1962 reverb tweak. (The mono mix on this album is pretty soupy to begin with.)
     
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  8. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Alright, moving on....

    I've got a VERY rambling "winners page" now posted here: Come Dance with Me - recorded 1958 Ramblings, Conclusions, and Recommendations »

    Because of some technical defects on some releases, including the most recent ones, and including my now-favorite (the 1984 UK release), a number of releases were simply disqualified, despite having some positive qualities, good sound, etc.

    Even those of us who took part in the "blind listening" group via private messaging had a hard time cracking this nut, as they say. I can't say there was a real consensus as to "best version," but, as I say at the linked page, the 1987 CD scored very poorly, and a whole lotta choices seemed pretty sub-par. Time for a remix on this one!

    Anyway, you can read all my thoughts on the linked page, and they I hope you'll contribute to the discussion here.
     
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  9. RogerB

    RogerB Forum Resident

    Location:
    Alabama
    Wow!!! Matt it is absolutely amazing the work you have put in to this! I've got a weekends worth of reading to do!

    Thank you from the bottom of a Sinatra Newbies heart!!!
     
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  10. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    My pleasure, @RogerB -- and welcome to the fold! :) (Thanks, too, to all who contribute clips and ideas to the website, and who discuss the albums here.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2016
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  11. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

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  12. mpayan

    mpayan A Tad Rolled Off

    I agree, it needs a remix (thats a scarey thought howthat might turn out though). I think I still prefer the 70s cut (the one with the yellow label). The german 2fer has that tubey sound, but I miss the bite and snap of the orchestra. The vocal seems mode upfront but slightly more processed (?) than the 70s cut. The Dell is kind of the best of both. But the instrumentation seems still a bit recessed compared to the 70s cut.

    Wish I had all three to listen to on a full stereo. Gotta start digging for these.

    Thanks, once again, for the clips and hard work Matt! And to those who provided the sources.
     
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  13. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Yep, the stereo "Dell" is my favorite, too, but it's too bad that "Saturday Night" is big-league screwed up on that edition. The other 11 songs sound very good.
     
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  14. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

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  15. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Looks like it, Matt.
     
  16. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    chicago, il
  17. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Thanks, guys.

    I think that's the first time I've seen Dave Cavanaugh with a goatee. (Perhaps I've forgotten some other photos???)
     
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  18. teag

    teag Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    On another threadI just posted a brief review of my new mono cartridge - Ortofon Quintet Mono. One of the mono LPs I am very impressed with sonically with the mono cartridge is what I believe is my original pressing of this LP. It's a 9 O'clock rainbow label, inner groove etching is:

    Side 1: W1-1069 D9
    Side 2: W2-1069 D6 #2

    There is what looks like an outline of a house on each side also.

    The vocals on this LP sound really great. Very full and distinguished from the instruments, which finally sound very good to me also. A much better listen than before I had this cartridge.

    I am appreciating this album much more now!
     
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  19. DLant

    DLant The Upstate Gort Staff

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    This just arrived. I really like this mono mix.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. teag

    teag Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    Nice picture!
     
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  21. DLant

    DLant The Upstate Gort Staff

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    Thank you!
     
  22. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    Listening to the pretty subpar 1987 CD. What's up with the way-off-center vocal? I think maybe the thinking by whoever did the remix (nobody is credited, although Larry Walsh was doing many of the Sinatra CDs at this time) was that during many of the verses, when the brass don't play, there's literally nothing happening in the right channel, so why not move the vocal over there (but not ALL the way over there) to fill the void a bit? On some tracks, it's about 6dB hotter in the right channel than the left.
     
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  23. teag

    teag Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    That is pretty bad. I can't take this album in stereo any more after giving a good listen to the mono LP.
     
  24. basie-fan

    basie-fan Forum Resident

    Does it sound better when you hit the "mono" switch? I don't have a turntable so CD is my only choice (bummer). As much as I like Frank I'm reluctant to spend even 5 dollars on such a poor quality product.
     
  25. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff

    @basie-fan --

    I doubt it. Several of us here did a blind listening session of a few songs from the album via, as I recall, about a dozen different stereo releases, and the 1987 CD scored way down toward the bottom of the list, which surprised many of us.
     

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