Sinatra / Capitol Sound Quality (and general discussion): Singles, Soundtracks, Etc.

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MLutthans, Aug 10, 2013.

  1. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    Going back four years, re: I Can Read Between the Lines
    Apparently, the audio link to the Norberg "click click" file had gone dead. I've now fixed it, and you can hear the glitch by going to the page linked above (it's near the bottom of the page), or by going to the audio link in this post from another thread, posted earlier today:
     
  2. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Paper cups already in use. ;)
     
  3. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Asking someone to lean wouldn't fit with the rest of the lyrics though...
     
  4. Bob F

    Bob F Forum Resident

    The lyrics were written after the original instrumental release. Note that the Billy May 45 label shows only his name as composer. Sinatra's lyrics were by Roy Alfred.
     
    MMM likes this.
  5. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    [Re: It's All Right with Me]
    I recall - though I'd need to check to be sure - they newly mixed these for the HOLLYWOOD set from the 3 tracks.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2017
  6. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    I did not realize that Talk to Me had a "verse" intro:
    s-l1600-62.jpg
     
    kennyluc1, MMM and DmitriKaramazov like this.
  7. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    Briefly revisiting The One I Love (Belongs to Somebody Else) from 1959:

    I recently acquired a copy of the 1983 Japanese No One Cares LP that includes this song as a bonus track near the end of side two. It uses the 1978 UK The Rare Sinatra source, which has "fuzzy" sound and is not in full-width stereo. (The left channel is panned toward the center.) The mastering is fine, the but source is :crazy:. This remains, then, a track that has only one "fully correct" release, and that release is the 1973 Longines Like Never Before LP, which has the song with 1.) the correct edits; and 2.) full-width, fuzz-free stereo. Other releases either use that sub-par source (in stereo or folded-down mono), or are missing the edits.
     
  8. Tribute

    Tribute Forum Resident

    So that once valuable and highly sought after LP, after having become just another unwanted record with little value, is now valuable again. Though few know about it's special value unless they read this thread. I'll have to pull my copy (or maybe two) out.
     
  9. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    It's definitely a mixed bag, sound-wise, but it does have -- uniquely -- correct presentations of both The One I Love and I Couldn't Care Less.
     
  10. Tribute

    Tribute Forum Resident

    Then it is doubly valuable. In the 1980's this was one of the most sought after Sinatra LPs. I had seen it go for up to $200 when that was a typical months rent on a nice apartment
     
  11. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    I've gone ahead and put together a webpage about Like Never Before, specifically. You can read it here: 1973 - Like Never Before
    [​IMG]
    As @Tribute suggests, this one is worth getting if only for the two stereo mixes that are unavailable elsewhere, and which sound very good here. The rest is a hodgepodge, sonically, with some tracks sounding pretty good, and some being in fake stereo and/or with reverb added. Details at the linked page.

    Also, keep in mind that this album was pressed for mail-order shopping in 1973 -- not a great year for vinyl quality overall -- at Capitol's Winchester plant. If you seek out a copy, expect a little Snap and Crackle to go with your masterful pop.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
    kevinsinnott, JeffreyB, MMM and 5 others like this.
  12. stevelucille

    stevelucille Active Member

    Location:
    Rochester, NY USA
    Great recap of this LP. FYI it seems like your box with the explanation of the rating scale slid down over the first line of text in the last paragraph.
     
    MLutthans likes this.
  13. Tribute

    Tribute Forum Resident

    @Tribute expect a little Snap and Crackle to go with your masterful pop.[/QUOTE]

    I was once quite the FS discography expert but have forgotten so many details.

    That line of yours about snap crackle and pop is a classic! It should be used in reply to all of those who expect absolute perfection from their overpriced new vinyl. You should use it again if you haven't already.

    "Snap, crackle and pop" was the advertising jingle for Kellogg's Rice Krispies in the very early 1950's. It is what the cereal did when you poured milk on it. One morning, my older sister said to me at breakfast, "Do you hear that crackling? If it stops before you finish your cereal, you will die!". I was so terrified, that after that, I waited with my spoon ready and was shoveling it in my mouth just as my mother was pouring the milk on. I wanted to finish before she even got the milk poured. My mother had to yell at me to let her at least get the milk on. But that is the way I ate it until I decided to switch cereals, mostly because it was painful going down as I tried to save time by not chewing the cereal much. That is one cereal I still do not buy. Basically, I don't like cereals that crackle.
     
    MMM, NorCal, paulmock and 1 other person like this.
  14. Tribute

    Tribute Forum Resident

    Note the three little audiophiles on the cover, named Snap, Crackle and Pop. Vintage cereal, from the box I never finished more when Ike just got elected President.

    [​IMG]
     
    NorCal and paulmock like this.
  15. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    Fixed, I think. Thanks for the heads up!

    You know what seems a little odd to me about Like Never Before? This:
    <<March 1, 1954: Day In - Day Out - from Frank Sinatra/Ray Anthony EP Melody of Love, 1954. First LP release. Mastering: Poor - fake stereo with reverb added.
    January 6, 1956: Memories of You - originally intended for Songs for Swingin’ Lovers, and a first-ever release here. Mastering: Poor - fake stereo.>>
    The other six tracks that were recorded mono-only are presented in true mono, but these two, both making their LP debuts, are in fake stereo, and I doubt that they would have been converted to fake stereo specifically for their appearance here, since the album, as a whole, did not get blanketed in fake stereo.

    Were these two tracks perhaps "in the running" for inclusion on some earlier compilation? Some ideas:

    •Day In - Day Out may have been considered (and prepped?) for inclusion here:
    R-4041514-1353276185-6045-1.jpeg.jpg
    (Yes, Day In - Day Out does appear on that album, but it's the Billy May recording from 1958.)
    •Memories of You may have been considered for inclusion here:
    R-2444966-1372596516-7359.jpeg.jpg
    or even here:
    R-2501266-1493938603-4196.jpeg.jpg
    which, I suppose, could explain how "Something Wonderful Happens in Summer" wound up re-appearing on this LP, i.e., perhaps the inclusion of Memories of You was poo-pood, and a replacement had to be chosen in short order.

    All just speculation, of course! It's weird, though, that fake stereo versions of these two mono songs apparently "existed" (had been prepped at some point) but had not been released until Like Never Before.
     
    MMM, NorCal, paulmock and 2 others like this.
  16. Tribute

    Tribute Forum Resident

    There must be some fellow out there who specializes in collecting Duophonic LPs and prefers to listen to only Duophonic, perhaps on a high end tube amplifier! I think I may have met several such guys at garage sales.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    BUT the BEST way to listen to Duophonic Records is not on your home Hi-Fi System. Rather, have two of your fellow Duophonic Freak friends synch up the same record on their home stereos and play them to you over the telephone. You will need two separate land lines for the very best audiophile sound (cell phones are crappy)

    [​IMG]

    Listening to a Sinatra ballad this way will bring tears to the eyes of almost anyone who has a soul.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
    JazzFanatic likes this.
  17. James_S888

    James_S888 Forum Resident

    The mono original of "Forever Frank" is all original mono, right?
    It's the "Duophonic" version with all the futz.
    As I understand it, the mono was left unfutzed and original.
     
  18. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    There is a mono LP, but I seem to remember it doesn't sound very good. I don't recall if all the sources used were "tampered" - I haven't played this in many years...
     
  19. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    Re: "It's All Right with Me" from Can-Can:
    Getting back on my horse and moving on to "C'est Magnifique" from Can-Can:
    Again, I think that in the CD era, we have three stereo remixes from Capitol's 3-track source tape: 1989 Can-Can CD; 1991 Select Cole Porter CD; 2002 In Hollywood CD.

    Regarding the odd UK stereo tapes that cropped up on It's All Right with Me, the same odd things that are mentioned in the quoted post above are evident on C'est Magnifique, i.e., the vocal is off to the right (not "hard right," but leaning right) on most versions that use the original stereo mix, but on the 1989 UK CD releases (Screen Sinatra and Great Films and Shows) the vocal is dead center. To confuse matters, I'm not 100% convinced that these are merely tweaks on the original Capitol stereo mix, but have to wonder -- against my own intuition and logic -- if this might be an alternate mix. Why? On most versions, the vocal is to the left. On the UK CD versions, the vocal is centered. This could be achieved by slightly "panning in" the right channel until the voice is shifted to the center. However, near the end of C'est Magnifique, there is a female voice that utters, "Je t'adore," and her voice is "hard right" on the versions that have Frank's vocal off to the right. It is also hard right on those UK editions that have Sinatra's vocal centered.

    The Australian Can-Can CD uses the original stereo mix as it sounds on the USA stereo LPs. The UK Screen Sinatra CD has the oddball "centered vocal" variant.

    In this file: https://app.box.com/s/titnrpuu7u5b0sefgzbw1l799vw4dgv1 you can hear the Australian CD followed by the UK CD. Focus on the location of the vocals.

    In this file: https://app.box.com/s/4nlh5vizqq61r4k3u1j8zlldgxvjcd6a I've dissected things further, alternating between the Australian CD (unaltered original USA stereo mix) and UK Screen Sinatra CD.

    I only bring this up because I view it as a curiosity, and I'd love to know what's really going on here. It's definitely a triviality, but a very odd one.

    Anybody have an original-issue UK stereo mix LP? Could you perhaps provide a clip for comparison?
     
    kevinsinnott and rangerjohn like this.
  20. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Well-Known Member

    Location:
    chicago, il
    Great analysis and thanks for the clips, Matt! Happy to have you back in the game. I would love to hear the UK stereo mix.
     
    bozburn and MLutthans like this.
  21. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    I have clips of C'est Magnifique posted here: Non-Album Tracks, 1959 .

    This may be one of those songs that has yet to have a release that really "nails it," sound-wise. To my ears, the two best versions are the original mono Can-Can soundtrack LP and the Reprise In Hollywood stereo CD, with the former leaning toward warm and mooshy, but with very pleasant tone, and the latter being clear as a bell, with much more detail, but an overall tone that could benefit from a bit of the warmth that's in spades on the mono mix. Both are good in their own way, and they out-do the other versions out there.

    Mono LP clip: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1959_-_SinglesEtc45_files/C'estMagnifiqueClipD5#2MonoLP-GAIN_01.mp3

    Stereo In Hollywood clip: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1959_-_SinglesEtc45_files/C'estMagnifiqueClipInHollywood-GAIN_01.wav

    Next up: "Let's Do It."
     
    bozburn and Simon A like this.
  22. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    Hmmmm.....another weird thing has popped up.

    Looking at Let's Do It, the Sinatra/MacLaine duet from Can-Can, the original mix is quite dry. The original stereo mix is soupy, with both Sinatra and Shirley MacLaine presented just to the right of center. Both of those mixes start with Frank saying, "Why, Even in France, the best upper sets do it," and an audible click noise (maybe a sound in the movie -- I need to have a look again) right before Ms. MacLaine sings "Folks in Siam....."

    The following releases:
    •1989 Can-Can CD
    •1991 UK 20 Golden Greats CD
    •2002 Reprise Sinatra in Hollywood CD

    all have Sinatra centered, MacLaine off to the far right (not merely "just right of center"), and no click noise prior to "Folks in Siam..." Vocals are tastefully dry.

    Here's what I would have assumed to be the case in 1960: 20th Century-Fox provided Capitol with a 3-track tape, mixed down from the Fox multi-track mag-film masters, from which Capitol could create stereo and mono LP mixes. Assumedly the tracks would consist of Left orchestra, vocals, and right orchestra. For the original stereo and mono mixes, that all falls in line. However, starting in 1989, we get this new stereo mix that has Sinatra and MacLaine in different spaces, so they are clearly on different tracks on the source tape available at that time. IIRC, Fox did not cooperate with Reprise on the 2002 In Hollywood set, but is it possible that in the late 80s Capitol got access to new source materials from Fox for CD release? Or was the original 3-track Capitol tape from 1960 actually laid out with orchestra on the left, Sinatra in the center, and orchestra and MacLaine on the right, but Capitol didn't care for that, and the original LP stereo mix was made at Fox from the multi-track mag film, with Sinatra and MacLaine centered in the mix? I really doubt that the second idea is correct, but I suppose it is possible. I lean toward the former being more likely (Capitol received new tapes from Fox for CD release), but what do I know? I'm just trying to figure this out.

    Original stereo mix: https://app.box.com/s/un0vn2jqeltczsnmmm03zdn9foxdgfsq
    1989 stereo remix: https://app.box.com/s/51ybo7j45vpoqlso9dyxvmrpkbz4si0a

    The odd thing is not that the song got remixed for CD in 1989, but rather that it seems to be from different source tapes, allowing for separation of the two vocal parts.
     
    Bob F likes this.
  23. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marysville, WA
    Another thought. Oklahoma! and Around the World in Eighty Days were Todd-AO films, as was Can-Can. For Oklahoma! and Eighty Days, Capitol and Decca did not create their own mixes. Rather, these were mixed by Fred Hynes at Todd-AO and delivered to the record companies for mono and (eventual) stereo release. Perhaps a similar arrangement was done here? (The mixes are simply not in the same ballpark as those other Todd-AO mixes, but perhaps they were done by other parties at Todd-AO, or perhaps Capitol did a lot of tinkering with them in 1960. I have no idea.)
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
  24. mahanusafa02

    mahanusafa02 Forum Resident

    Matt, I've got the original UK stereo LP (and the original UK mono LP as well), but equipment and then family issues have precluded my making a rip. I think in the new year I'll be able to have a go at providing clips of all the FS songs on Can-Can.
     
    MLutthans likes this.
  25. Bob F

    Bob F Forum Resident

    This is from the book in the 2002 Frank Sinatra in Hollywood box set (which matches the 1989 CD):
    And this, from an SFF post:
    :confused: Chuck Granata seems to imply that the three-tracks he received from Capitol for the In Hollywood project were the same ones used back in 1960.
     
    DmitriKaramazov and MLutthans like this.

Share This Page