Sinatra / Capitol Sound Quality (and general discussion): Singles, Soundtracks, Etc.

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MLutthans, Aug 10, 2013.

  1. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    I suspect that any EP tracks of the era are going to be like that, sad to say.
     
  2. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    "I Love You" is going to be a breeze, folks.

    •UK 1998 Dell "Swing Easy" CD from the Boxed Set, The Sinatra Touch LP, The 1984 UK Dell "Swing Easy" LP -- all use wet tapes. Thumbs down.

    •Come Swing with Me Norberg-mastered bonus track and Complete Capitol Singles -- Norberged. Not good. There's enough processing that it's a little hard to tell, but I think (!) that the former uses the wet tapes AND has the Norberg treatment.

    •Original EP -- bad tone.

    That leaves The Capitol Years 3-CD set and Come Swing with Me Walsh-mastered bonus track, which use the dry tapes and are well mastered, fully mono. You can't go wrong with either one. (They are both unique masterings, by the way.)

    Was there ever a dry vinyl copy of this one, aside from the original 45 and EP? It's possible, but I'd be surprised. (Well, I know there was a vinyl version of The Capitol Years that was out for about 5 minutes.) Anybody have that original-release 45? How about W-1429, the early '60s "Swing Easy" mono vinyl reissue? I'm guessing it's wet, but maybe somebody can check? How about the UK "Singin' and Swingin'" or the "My Cole Porter" LP? Any others?
     
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  3. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    That was the first LP release of "I Love You" (1962). It came out after FS left Capitol and they started soaking the master tapes. I believe it was always wet
     
  4. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Yes! I'm glad you like it. I never got one myself. I was more passing along Chuck Granata's recommendation for it...
     
  5. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    I'm not near my LPs, but everything on that should be tampered.
     
  6. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    "I Love You" clips are now posted, here: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1953_-_SinglesEtc2.html (Scroll down the page.)

    Wow -- lots of subpar versions on this one, so I only posted the ones that use the correct, dry tapes, plus a few transitional clips to shed some light on a couple of the baddies. Me? I'm going with The Capitol Years Walsh/Furmanek mastering as being best. I think that version and the bonus track from Come Swing with Me sound just about identical in the vocal stretches, but in the big forte brass parts, the later Walsh mastering falters just a tad by comparison. Both are still really nice, though, and are the only options for good tone + dry tapes.

    Also, it's great to have a clip from The Capitol Years 1990 LP set on this song. I think that since the LP and CD appear to be mastered from the same digital files with extremely similar/predictable results, I'll just post the CD clip in the future, but if you are an LP fan, keep in mind that there is, indeed, a digitally-mastered LP option for this title. Sound reasonable?
     
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  7. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    I think THE CAPITOL YEARS version sounds best on this, Matt.
     
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  8. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Cross-ref link to recent thread which touches on possible Nelson Riddle/Billy May influences:

    Sinatra, Arrangements on Only the Lonely and Come Fly With Me
     
  9. AlmightyRon

    AlmightyRon Forum Resident

    A bit off topic, but I pulled out my various copies of This Is Sinatra and found that my Japanese copy (2LP-31) has an N1 (side 1) and a D5 (side 2). I don't think I've ever found a non-US version that used both D & N stampers. The UK (LCT 6123) has N1 & N2 as most UK pressings do. Anyone know why they would send both D & N stampers to Japan?
     
  10. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    It's pretty crazy that both LA and NY would send metal parts to other countries back then. No idea why...maybe to even out the load between plants?
     
  11. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    I don't think the N stampers in the UK are a reference to NYC. The font is totally different, at least on copies I've seen, plus they end in, for instance, 2N as opposed to the US's N2.
     
  12. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Re: South of the Border

    Has there ever been a "wet" release of this one? All the samples that people sent are dry/unfutzed, even The Sinatra Touch set.
     
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  13. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    The original THIS IS SINATRA "a" take of SOUTH OF THE BORDER was destroyed, probably by accident. Sometime after 1973. Just thought I'd mention it. I'm sure there are plenty of safeties.
     
  14. AlmightyRon

    AlmightyRon Forum Resident

    I never noticed it but you are absolutely right. Of course that does open the door for more questions though doesn't it?
     
  15. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    ....and the mastering for this song -- perhaps at least partially the result of a missing master????? -- is all over the map. Norbergs aside, the masterings are all mono and pretty "sympathetic' to the cause of the music. That said, they are far from the same! Check out a clip with four different versions of the same little brass clip, in this order: 1.) The Capitol Years Walsh/Furmanek mastering; 2.) D1 LP; 3.) 1985 UK LP; 4.) 1968 mono edition of The Sinatra Touch 6-LP set. (Thanks to MMM and eharmonica for clips 1 and 2.)

    Here's the clip: https://app.box.com/s/r6a12rzdl0ooa1fe2r4v

    (This clip appears in the last 15 seconds of the 90 second freely available iTunes clip, FWIW.)
     
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  16. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Some vocal-centric "South of the Border" clips (again, all within the iTunes freebies window -- no free giveaways):

    D1 This is Sinatra pressing, courtesy eHarmonica: https://app.box.com/s/9oqau4fpteela17skkf3
    1968 The Sinatra Touch mono set: https://app.box.com/s/i6wyjeqnuvgdp6lztrom
    1985 UK This is Sinatra LP: https://app.box.com/s/c16hhbo2uzeptr5xebbb
    1990 The Capitol Years Walsh/Furmanek clip: https://app.box.com/s/d867e5gkyn16ksmzxdlr

    (By the way, I'm not at home and not working with my usual gear in my usual surroundings, so if there are any problems with the uploads, please let me know so I can fix the problem.)

    EDIT: Here's the D9 pressing that Blackie shared: https://app.box.com/s/0o5hok7np6zyke48pmao

    ...and the 1998 UK boxed set CD clip that Bob F shared: https://app.box.com/s/a5rl9bz7g51vffbl6tud

    ....and the This is Frank Sinatra 1953-1957 UK CD: https://app.box.com/s/kftpreqzt6fnrj6d4ult

    ....and Doctor Robert's 1980's Japanese LP clip: https://app.box.com/s/y97ep5jz707elfebo5tk
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2013
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  17. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    I think I like the "Sinatra Touch" version at first blush...I need to hear all the clips covering the same passage to be sure though (including the vocal).
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2013
  18. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    You know, Martin, that totally opens the door....and I agree with you, which surprises me (not that we agree, but that we both like The Sinatra Touch, at least at this stage of things), as the other cuts in that set so far have been pretty smushed, but not this one. In fact, the dynamic readings are the same as on Capitol Collectors Series.

    This is an odd recording! There seems to be lots of knob twiddling going on. For instance, the first vocal lines (on any mastering) have some fairly obvious vocal reverb dialed in, but then by the time we reach "stars above," the vocal reverb disappears, and the drier vocal sound takes over. (Kind of reminds me of the changes in reverb levels on "No Reply" by the Beatles.) Also, the brass can very easily tip the scales into thin or brash or harsh sound, which is not good.

    The 1985 UK Dell LP is interesting. In short, it sucks! Odd thing is, though, that the tone is horridly bright and reedy for the first minute or so, then it calms down a bit, and I wonder if maybe there's a splice in there, i.e., part of the tape is from a safety, and part is from the master or a different (better) safety copy.

    None of the CD copies "wow me" thus far, and again (just speculating), that may have to do with a missing master maybe???? Maybe??

    I think the two worst sounding versions are the D1 and the Dell, but for exactly opposite reasons: D1 is very dull on top, and Dell is way too bright and thin, and even more so in the first 65 seconds, which fall outside the iTunes segment, so I didn't post.

    The Star Line is nothing special. The D9 was (IMO) a little better than the D1.

    As far as the CDs go, I did a lot of blind listening today (with the help of my wife, who juggled tracks on a CD-R for me). I listened a couple of times at home, then a bunch of times in the car today, and my car listening jived very well with my more serious/focused home listening, which is encouraging. The Capitol Years seemed to have bass that was not abundant, but pretty well defined and clear, and it (as the unknown "track 7" on the CD-R) was the one that I was consistently choosing as the best sounding CD, without knowing what it was.

    Again, this is just an initial, kneejerk reaction, but The Sinatra Touch track strikes me as having:
    •Warmer-than-most vocal tone -- a plus!
    •Cymbals that I can hear! (No joke: They all but disappear in places on the D pressings)
    •Saxes that don't sound thin
    •Brass that have a degree of smoothness that is sadly lacking in some versions

    I keep looking for reasons to hate it....

    Matt
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2013
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  19. Arkoffs

    Arkoffs Remote member

    Location:
    Right behind you
    Yup, the deadwax info on the original UKs I've had has always looked like the typical UK EMI fonts ... they must have received tapes rather than US metal parts as a general rule.
     
  20. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

  21. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Somewhere between that F21 STAR LINE clip and the one from THE SINATRA TOUCH lies the best sound. The first is a little too bassy, and the other is tilted the other way. Interesting that they were both issued in a relatively close timeframe.
     
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  22. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    I played the SINATRA TOUCH version some more...

    It's not right sounding, but overall it's still better than most of the others. It leaves the impression of something futzed with (almost, but not quite, along the lines of the Norberg phony eq that you hear on the better sounding tracks of the Singles CD box). There's something "smoothed over" about it, plus that sort of overripe or too much midbass somewhere, while lacking in the deeper regions below. It's still somehow better as a whole than most other releases though!

    As far as the recording itself goes, I think it sounds excellent, except the muted trumpets get some of the character Matt notes above. From what I remember, that's very often been an issue in the various releases of it.
     
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  23. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Yeah, this is a strange one to pin down, Martin. I think I'm comfortable going with THE CAPITOL YEARS and THE SINATRA TOUCH as two very different ways to go on this one, i.e., "Best Traditional" and "Alternate" views. I dunno....
     
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  24. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Yeah, I agree.
     
  25. W.B.

    W.B. The Collector's Collector

    Location:
    New York, NY, USA
    That I've also noticed. That was before EMI UK changed their code from N to U (i.e. 1U).
     

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