Sinatra-Jobim: 1998 German CD Versus "the Suitcase" Tracks

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by rangerjohn, Feb 4, 2010.

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  1. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    chicago, il
    Anyone have an opinion on the sound quality of these respective versions of the first Sinatra-Jobim collaboration? Many thanks!
     
  2. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    chicago, il
    By the way, the code for the German Sinatra-Jobim is 9362-46948-2. It may very well be if the same mastering as appears on the Reprise suitcase.
     
  3. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    This is the "Entertainer of the Century" remix (1998). There was an earlier US CD issue with catalog no. 1021-2 (1988) which predated the suitcase (1995).
     
  4. shicorp

    shicorp Senior Member

    Location:
    Austria
    I'm afraid I can't be much of a help since I haven't heard the versions outside the suitcase, but from what I've been reading here, I'd say none of the CD issues of the Jobim album are really authentic since the album masters are supposedly gone. It will be interesting to see whether Concord creates yet another new mix or uses an extant one.
     
  5. ArneW

    ArneW Senior Member

    Location:
    Cologne, Germany
    Stefan, are you sure about that? IIRC the Rhino LP from a few years back (the one cut by Steve Hoffman and Kevin Gray) used the original album masters on all but one track which was damaged and thus had to be spliced in from a safety.

    Arne

    Edit: I just found Steve's post from 2004 where he states that he used the original masters for both Sinatra/Jobim and "September": http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=543232&postcount=2
     
  6. bluesbro

    bluesbro Forum Hall of Shame

    Location:
    DC
    I've only listened to the EOTC and I like it very much.
     
  7. shicorp

    shicorp Senior Member

    Location:
    Austria
    Many thanks for the info, Arne. I was wrong about that then. I have the 180g Jobim in my collection. I guess Concord will create a new mix. So, it's unlikely that we will ever see the original mix on CD...
     
  8. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Isn't it the original stereo mix on the 1988 CD and the suitcase?
     
  9. shicorp

    shicorp Senior Member

    Location:
    Austria
    I don't know. In the post linked above by Arne, Steve says that "this is the first time those mixes have been used for anything in quite a long time" (referring to the 180g LPs). It seems as if the same is true for "September Of My Years" then.
     
  10. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Well, that post was in 2004, and 1988 would have been quite a long time. :)

    Steve goes on in that thread to mention "the 1990's digital mixes used for the WB CD's." One might assume he's referring there to the 1998 EOTC CDs, which were definitely remixed as differences from the earlier CD versions are easily heard.
     
  11. shicorp

    shicorp Senior Member

    Location:
    Austria
    I guess it comes down to the question what Steve means by "quite a long time". As I've said I have the 180g LP, but it is a German pressing - and I'm unsure whether I would notice the difference, since many re-mixes come close to the original. Maybe Martin can chime in here...
     
  12. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    I was sent to this thread by a Sinatra fan and SH Forums member. Hi, y'all.

    I have no idea what a 1998 German CD sounds like and I also have no clue as to what "The Suitcase" is.

    If you're talking about the Sinatra-Jobim LP (one of my favorite Frank albums of all time) I can answer your questions. I just don't know what they are.

    The original stereo master tape is ruined because the four channel original was reduced in stereo to Scotch 200 series tape and then stored in an overheated environment, causing the first song on side one and the first song on side two to melt and become unplayable. There was an analog safety made in the 1980's that is acceptable for mastering use. Kevin Gray used it to cut the 180 gram stereo LP reissue.

    Everyone has tried to do a remix of this album. I tried myself twice with varying degrees of success. It's very tricky to get right because Frankie does a LOT of "ching ching ching" ad-lib type stuff that has to be quick-faded out during his vocal passages. I just left that stuff in, it's quite charming but I guess the WB people hated it so they shelved it. At any rate it's a really beautiful album, even the original mono version (which should be released as well someday).

    So, what is the question for me? I'm totally confused. I might have to climb in a Suitcase to meditate on the situation..
     
  13. shicorp

    shicorp Senior Member

    Location:
    Austria
    Hello Steve,

    many thanks for coming to this thread.

    The basic question is whether or not the original mix (or at least parts of it) have been released on CD, or if all available CD versions (the 1980s Reprise CD, the version in the "Complete Reprise Recordings" box set = suitcase, the 1998 EOTC CD) use a digital re-mix of the album. The same question arises for "September Of My Years".

    Best regards,

    Stefan
     
  14. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    The first Warner/Reprise CD in the US was issued in 1988. There are no engineering credits other than Lee Herschberg. The "suitcase" is THE COMPLETE REPRISE STUDIO RECORDINGS 20-CD set, first issued in a leather "trunk" in 1995 and re-released in a box set in 1998.

    It's been my belief that the original Reprise CD of FRANCIS ALBERT SINATRA & ANTONIO CARLOS JOBIM (1988) contained the 1967 stereo LP mix. I *think* the same tracks were used in the suitcase/boxset (1995/1998), but I haven't taken the time to compare these critically.

    The "1998 German CD" is the same as the US WB remastered EOTC (Entertainer of the Century) CD edition, which I believe was remixed from the original four-tracks.

    A new mix by Larry Walsh was performed for at least two songs, "The Girl From Ipanema" and "I Concentrate On You," released on recent compilation CDs (NOTHING BUT THE BEST and SEDUCTION, respectively). I would expect the new Concord issue announced for May 2010 release to contain similar new mixes.
     
  15. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    I think Bob is right about the first USA CD issue of Jobim containing the original 1967 stereo mix but with added (pointless) treble and compression. No idea why they felt the need to do that to it. Sounds too brittle.

    Regarding SEPT. OF MY YEARS, I have no idea. Some of the original tapes are on four track tape, some on three track tape and all were remixed many times in the 1980's and 1990's (badly, IMO).

    The thing about Sinatra stuff from 1961 to 1967 is that all one has to do to hear a proper mix is to turn up the three or four channels up equally and there ya go, it's mixed right on there, a splash of reverb and everything. Trying to add extra reverb or "punch it up" using bad EQ and compression just makes the stuff sound crappy and artificial. No idea why they do it like that. The originals mix themselves quite easily because United/Western engineers like Lowell Frank really knew what they were doing.

    Can't help you more, sorry. When I want to hear Sinatra on Reprise I usually fall back on my old mono LPs..
     
  16. shicorp

    shicorp Senior Member

    Location:
    Austria
    Many thanks for the help, Steve. I'll try to find out whether the suitcase and first US CD versions are identical. If this shouldn't be the case, I'll hunt the latter after the release of the new Sinatra/Jobim collection. I suspect the prices will have dropped by then...
     
  17. shicorp

    shicorp Senior Member

    Location:
    Austria
  18. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Authentic does not necessarily mean better, and as Steve mentioned: The mix may be authentic, the mastering is not. I prefer the 1998 EOTC CD over the earlier one.

    Furthermore, some might argue that the *mono* mix is more "authentic," although in this case, I believe I remember Steve saying somewhere that the mono LP used a dedicated mix from the four-track tapes.
     
  19. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Yes, indeed.

    United/Western still ran unique mono tapes during Sinatra sessions even in 1967 BUT (and this is a big butt, I mean but), they had to remix Sinatra-Jobim in mono because of the above-mentioned vocal ad-libs that Sinatra did that they needed to remove. They had to remix in mono to get rid of the extra vocal embelishments...

    I would assume the mono sessions are still at WB though who really needs them? The full unedited four channel sessions are there as well.
     
    MLutthans likes this.
  20. floweringtoilet

    floweringtoilet Forum Resident

    Location:
    Warren, RI, USA
    Yes, authentic or otherwise, the 80s CD release sounded pretty terrible. I thought the EOTC remix was an improvement. Capitol did such a horrible job with the EOTC series that it is easy to overlook that the Reprise ETOC releases were generally an improvement over their earlier CD releases (at least to my ears).

    I have an original stereo Reprise LP too, and while arguably "authentic" it doesn't sound so great either. It sounds kind of dull and closed in to my ears. Kevin Grey's LP remaster for Rhino/Warner sounds much better than my "authentic" vintage LP. I'd love to hear an original mono version of this LP.
     
  21. Greg1954

    Greg1954 New Member

    Location:
    .
    I have 4 Reprise stereo LP's of the first Sinatra Jobim album and they all sound 'dull and closed in.' Don't think I'll bother with another.:)

    Lots of copies in the used bins, though, usually for cheep.
     
  22. shicorp

    shicorp Senior Member

    Location:
    Austria
    Many thanks for the comments. I guess the CD will be available for a few bucks, once the new Concord sampler is out. Maybe I will give it a try then - just out of curiosity;)
     
  23. Khojem

    Khojem Forum Resident

    Location:
    Irvine, CA, USA
    Has there ever been a CD release of this album that contains an instrumental track as cut 11?
     
  24. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Doubt it. The other two songs recorded at the Jobim sessions were "Drinkin' Again" and "Something Stupid" with daughter Nancy..
     
    raphph likes this.
  25. rangerjohn

    rangerjohn Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    chicago, il
    Thanks very much for all the information, everyone--as usual. Just wanted to get things sorted out before the Concord remixes are available, about which I'm super excited!
     
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