Snap crackle and pop

Bridge Over Troubled Water costs $99? Wow. That album title was prescient! The shipping and tax on that must cost more than four or five copies of the original when it was released. But the tolls on many bridges now cost more than a new CD does today.

 

This. I fail to see the appeal of buying something on vinyl when you can get the same mastering on CD.

 

My thanks to everyone for contributing.

I was wondering if anyone would remember the Rice Crispies commercial ... and that honor goes to --

I was raised on vinyl. I walked away from record collecting in the mid-1980s and got back into it the day before yesterday. I came late to buying CD's, too, because I was so busy with work I had never time. Now I just wish I was busy with work and didn't have time.

More later.

 

Oh boy collecting original Sinatra on lp...get ready for the noise! I've spent a lot of time trying to find clean copies and when I do they don't always sound as good as they look. Other forum members have had better luck though.

 

That has always been true with vinyl from all time periods. Visual appearance may suggest cleaner sound, but not always. Often a record that has a very clean appearance has poor sound. That may not be from scratches that are visible, but from groove damage from even a single play on a bad stylus or from air pollutants/grease in the air that settled deep in the grooves, or just lousy materials. Sometimes a record that appears bad, even poor, plays relatively quietly. That bad appearance may be from residues or finger print grease at the tops of the grooves, not from physical damage inside the grooves.

In many cases, the visual condition of a record cannot even be estimated under even decent light in your home or in a record store. BRIGHT sunlight however can reveal serious visual flaws. Inside a record store, sometimes there is sunlight, but I even will ask a dealer if I can examine the vinyl out in the bright sunlight outside the door. (They always let me). I am often glad I did, because a record that at first appeared to be in Excellent shape suddenly shows that it is actually poor. Wow! Those flaws explode into sight under the very bright light, if the record is held at the right angles.

I love it when people selling used CDs say they had a smoke free home. So what? I am only half serious when I say we should ask them how often they cook hamburgers or beef. The grease particles from that are pervasive and settle everywhere, throughout the home, even with good vent fans over your stove

 

But it is great to hold a piece of actual cultural history in your hands...original 10 inch LPs of Sinatra (not replicas), or other first or early pressings of LPs from the 1950s, even with scratches and peanut butter on the vinyl. Hold that in your hand while listening to the CD if the record is not adequate for enjoyment. Feel the history move through you.

 

Well, for those that can't really discern a quality upgrade on vinyl, I would have to say why bother with the hassles? It has to be worth it, that's for sure!

 

probably part of why i feel the way i do.

 

Wow. There is so much written around here how cds are typically mastered much different than vinyl! That's the reason so many of us are buying it! I hate it when I buy new vinyl and it clearly used the cd mastering. Luckily I have found that to be rare.

 

When I was introduced to CDs in the mid-eighties and the sheer absence of snap, crackle and pop I knew that my LP buying days were numbered. And I've never looked back.

That said, I respect and understand the enthusiasm for vinyl. And actually, the quest the OP is about to take sounds fun. Godspeed, pilgrim.

 

I didn't think records could be manufactured with a master intended for CD manufacture.

 

Based on what your ears tell you?

 

Based on the knowledge that different formats cater to different audiences and lifestyles. I'm well versed in vinyl. I collected, listened, and experienced it for years. I miss very little about it, but that's based solely on my apprehension about upkeep, cost, and other downsides to the format. Like the aforementioned snap crackle and pop. Trepidations others don't have because the negatives are offset by the positives. And yes, I imagine its the sound quality that's at the core of it all. Again, for some people.

But I'm no warrior for any format. There's little benefit for me to be one. If anything I'm for physical product in a general sense because it isn't about CDs versus vinyl versus cassette or what have you. I'd much rather they all continue to be viable at least to some degree, because otherwise we're stuck with digital downloads - or even worse - limited to streaming our music.

 

I haven't read the topic however here are two suggestions. You need a record cleaning machine and good record cleaning products to actually get the full benefits of vinyl playback. I use Audio Intelligent #15 cleaner and their pure rinse. It's a game changer.

My vinyl is cd quiet.

The other suggestion is why not buy the mobile fidelity reissues of Frank Sinatra?

 

Of course it's not literally the same master. When people say "the same mastering", they mean the same EQ, the same level of compression, etc., basically that it sounds the same as the vinyl. I haven't done a lot of side-by-side comparisons, but I've found several LPs that sound (to me) virtually identical to the CD pressing, as well as several that sound obviously different.

 

Can’t stand it which is why I stick to CDs. Also when I do vinyl rips I’ll use software to delete clicks. I don’t notice the downgrade in sound for running the software as much as I notice the snap crackle pop so it’s worth the compromise to me.

 

I never went back to vinyl because of snap, crackle and pop. I want the music and the music alone.
I never had a high end system so I never noticed the difference in sound between vinyl and CD anyway. Since the early 70s, I have always adjusted the bass and treble for each record played.
Screw vinyl.

 

Preamp.
[didn't show up w/search]
A high quality phono preamp can help eliminate some surface/groove noise.
Good luck.*

* could never get passed the "Snap, Crackle, & Pop" myself.

 

Hahahaha!!

I hear ya.
As much as I love vinyl it can be frustrating at times.

 

That was my point. Same mix, same sound quality (of voice and instruments).

It is just that one choice costs about 67% less than the other, and will not arrive with or develop defects with normal care. One is not ever damaged by playback equipment, while the other might be. One you can take on a trip or loan to a friend without a care. One might offer bonus tracks and the other will not. For those on a budget, one is almost always available used, in mint condition, while the other is virtually never available in the after market.

To me, with one choice, on the same budget, you can explore a much greater range of music and share that pleasure easily with friends, while the other restricts you.

But, vinyl is wonderful for the sense of history...things that are of their time. But that is for the originals. Not the overpriced replicas manufactured today.

 

I’m always amazed at how upgrades in equipment lower the noise floor. My latest acquisitions have been a new cartridge with a line contact stylus (replacing a shibata), a true stand-alone SUT, and a Periphery weight. “It all matters” as they say. It all has a cost, too, but if I could go back and recreate what I have, I probably could achieve a similar sound by cutting some corners here and there.

 

Conical stylus?
Elliptical / spherical stylus?

What kind of stylus causes the least amount of groove damage and produces the best sound with the least amount of surface noise ...

 

Conical/spherical is the same thing. Ideally one should have an assortment of styli for different applications. For stereo LPs I am a big fan of the AT150Mlx by Audio Technica. I use this with more expensive records that I listen to with headphones late at night. I also use a generic elliptical on my Ortofon Concorde for everyday spinning of lesser value stereo records via speakers. For old mono records I use conical styli exclusively because they are best suited for the way mono grooves were cut. If a mono record is in great condition I use a 1mil conical tip with my Ortofon Concorde. If it's in lesser condition I use a smaller .07mil conical with an AT70 cart. The reason being the larger conical tip sounds better BUT, is more prone to skip from surface scratches. For VG+ or lower grade monos the smaller tip rides lower and avoids potential skip causing damage. Elliptical or finer type styli are likely to scrape the bottom of a mono groove though not always.

So.....If you want to buy just one cart/stylus it depends what type of records you listen to most. If say old mono records are a substantial portion of your listening then I would probably go with the best possible conical you can find [not sure what that is]. Perhaps a slightly smaller conical like .06mil tip.

 

No particular type of stylus causes any groove damage if used properly.
A conical and spherical stylus are the same. Both are of a circular nature.
The term spherical is more associated with wide-groove 78 rpm records.
The conical-type stylus is more associated with mono microgroove records, including the 7" 45 rpm records. Into the 60's, RCA Victor introduced the DynaGroove record in both stereo and mono. These were cut especially for a conical stylus. The standard microgroove stylus was conical and 1 mil.
The conical stylus contacts the groove covering a smaller area, therefore creating more pressure on a particular area of the groove, so tracking force should be kept to a minimum within the manufacturers specifications which can be anywhere from 1g to 5g. Being non-directional, a conical stylus was the style of choice for radio stations and other commercial phonograph uses. When back-cueing a record, less damage would be inflicted in the grooves due to the round non-directional nature of a conical stylus.
The size of the stylus determines how high or low it will ride in the groove. Whereas a 1 mil stylus will ride higher in the groove, closer to surface imperfections, a modern .7 mil stylus rides lower in the groove, beneath the surface defects. This is one reason that a 78 rpm record, played with a 2g to 2.7g will sound better than when played with a standard 3 mil stylus. A .7 mil conical stylus is ideal for used microgroove records.
An elliptical stylus is just that, having 2 dimensions and is of a wedge/chisel shape. With the standard of stereo records being .7 mil, an elliptical stylus is directional and will actually ride lower in the grooves and will be more affected by trash and imperfections in the grooves but will also retract more of the good stuff we want to hear. Playing records, you have to accept the bad with the good. A used elliptical stylus will develop a directional wear pattern and should not be reversed. Any stylus will develop a directional bias over time if only played in one direction and should not be reversed.
An elliptical stylus can be used as a tool. If there is a pop or tick in a record, and the record has been cleaned properly, you can slowly turn the record by hand until the stylus contacts the imperfection causing the unwanted noise. Turning the record back and forth over the imperfection can sometimes pop it out of the groove. Others, under magnification, locate the source of the unwanted noise in the groove and use a very small pick, like dentists use, to flick it out. Way back when, RCA Victor would do this to the lacquer masters of 'Red Seal' 78's before plating to correct the defects before records were actually pressed.
Depending on what kind of records you are playing, a conical .7 mil on a vintage mono microgroove record will track the best and depending on the frequency range of the cartridge will determine how much you will hear. The use of an elliptical stylus in a higher end wide frequency cartridge like a Shure M97xe playing an early microgroove record can be disastrous. Using a Shibata, hyper-elliptical or linear stylus can give you even worse sound on an old record.
For new, current production records, it's elliptical all the way.

 

And for those precious vertical cut Pathe Records, use nothing but cactus needles

Happy St. Patrick's Day