So is the Ortofon 2m Black that much of an upgrade/improvment over the Bronze?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Quentin Behle, Mar 27, 2017.

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  1. Jrr

    Jrr Forum Resident

    I grabbed the last one off of Amazon and will let everyone know what I think. It will be here Thursday and I will install it immediately. I do have a tube phono pre so it should sound beautiful.
     
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  2. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    Valid points, we can't hear all these carts and certainly not on our own systems. Making choices based on professional reviews an opinions of owners is just about the only option. It is however only a guess and not definitive.

    I bought s debute Carbon in part because it was reviewed as product of the year by stereophile (I think). It's not a great table.

    I don't know that you can call negative reviews if the 2mb 2 to 1. I read many, many posts on this forum about how difficult it was to set up a Lyra and if you didn't get it right it was a waste of money. I was pretty freaked out about getting it right but still gave it a shot. It wasn't all that hard.

    We all have different ears, gear and emotions. One thing I have found is at this price point, they are all extraordinary products, reviews are largely subjective and many are just emotional and defensive about the choices they have made.

    The 2m line is a fairly "exciting" sound and many will prefer something a little more laid back.
     
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  3. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    I agree with you. Everything on this forum is subjective. Objectivity resides mostly with God. I was just a bit ticked off with the "armchair expert" part. I'm sure the Black is a wonderful cartridge. I'm also sure it's not for everyone. Like you, I've read many threads here about the Black (there must be at least one new thread about it every week). Many are positive, more are skeptical. The balance, at least to my eyes, is not in Black's favor, so, I make a choice of not getting one. Similarly, most everyone seems to love the Bronze, with only an occasional skeptic. Again - I make the choice of getting one for my next table.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
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  4. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    I whole heartedly agree that the 2m line is "exciting". I have the 2M Bronze and I must say that I am pleased with it, running on a Vinyl Nirvana, Thorens TD 160 Super TT.

    I find that many "professional" reviews on products, differ from mine (which is OK). But I don't make purchasing decisions, based on professional reviews alone. I do take into consideration, how favorable, I find the professional reviewer's past reviews, for example.

    Years ago, there weren't many options other than professional reviews featured in audio magazines. Today, we as consumers, have many more options available to us.

    One HUGE issue that I do have with regard to professional reviews is that most are reviewing for magazines, that advertise the product that they are reviewing. This, to me, negates any objectivity that the reviewer might have.

    I do agree with your statement "One thing I have found is at this price point, they are all extraordinary products" and that if we view the review from the standpoint that "reviews are largely subjective", it moves our mindset from expecting something more analytical.

    I like to read reviews from the general cross section of user's expressed public opinions.

    Within our forum members, it is interesting to note, that the cartridge is favored by many.

    It is also interesting to note, that there is also a strong opinion that seems to caution others, that they may find it more challenging to set up, that the proper VTA should not be ignored and that the cart is prone to bringing out SN.

    All together, I find these varied opinions interesting and more relevant than those who have professionally reviewed the 2MB.
     
  5. TheIncredibleHoke

    TheIncredibleHoke Dachshund Dog Dad

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    I used the "armchair expert" in reply to your post, because you said the following:

    I am sorry if that phrase ticked you off, but your comment was dismissive of anyone who might have had a different experience. Perhaps "might not" rather than "would not" would have made your comment seem less "it must be so" in tone.
     
    Philog likes this.
  6. Tom Littlefield

    Tom Littlefield Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Hampshire, USA
    I am running the Black on a SOTA Moonbeam with and Acoustic Signature 500 arm. This arm has no adjustment for VTA but it does come with it's own alignment protractor which I took time to use and set up the cart correctly.

    It sounds fantastic!!
     
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  7. beercanchicken

    beercanchicken Legendary Stickman

    Location:
    Chicago
    Armchair observer here. In my research for a new cartridge, I always see the recommendation to skip the Bronze (which seems to be the least regarded in the line but that doesnt really mean anything if you like it) and go straight to the Black
     
    Philog likes this.
  8. cadeallaw

    cadeallaw Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dayton, OH
    In my opinion... if you are wanted to spend less than $500 for a cart (more specifically, $440), the Bronze is a fine selection to make. If one is looking for a cart around the $1,000 range, I would likely advise to go with a MC cartridge. At $760 for the Black, one is awfully close to decent MC territory. Hear great things about the Black, though
     
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  9. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Nothing wrong than being an "armchair" observer. I am not a musician, just because I do not make music (and believe me, that is a good thing), doesn't mean that I don't listen to music and have an understanding what it should sound like.

    Now, see, I don't interrupt the forum comments the way that you do.

    Some members have gone directly from the red, or more often, from the blue, to the black, skipping over the bronze and are very pleased with the black. But many of these have never tried the bronze, to be able to make any comments with their experience, with the bronze.

    I don't feel that the majority of people who own or have owned the bronze, have negative feelings, toward the bronze. The impression that I get, is that there are those, who have owned both, that they prefer the black better (which is fine).

    The bronze cartridge is the same as the black, the black just uses the upgraded Shibata stylus, for increased detail.

    A quote from Ortofon's web site, regarding their 2M product line.

    The Audio Beat, August 2016
    by Marc Mickelson


    ... The 2M Black is "open, fast, detailed, vivid, full of vitality and sonically spectacular." It is a true high-resolution transducer that consequently puts great demands on the downstream electronics and speakers...

    Good things to say about the black. But, with regard to the Bronze:

    ...While the 2M Black sounds more immediately impressive, the 2M Bronze is the more satisfying over the long haul, halving the difference between the Black's speed and resolution and the Blue's balance. In fact... it is a mixture of all of these sonic virtues. It's fast, but not ostentatiously so; it turns information into music, and it does this because it is better balanced, neither leaning in one sonic direction or another. I would say that it represents not just the 2M line's sweet spot but also its musical core. ..."

    So, I don't get that our members have a dislike for the bronze, so just prefer the black and others have never owned the bronze.

    From the members posts, I am of the opinion that about half of the members, have no preference for the black at all, most of those members appear to be opting for either the bronze, or for another different cartridge all together.

    I have the bronze and I think it is an excellent sounding cartridge. Since, at present, over 90% (probably closer to 95%) of my records, are sourced used, it is entirely possible, that excessive detail, may not result in the best, most musical sound.

    The 2M line are not the fullest sounding cartridges, every one should be aware of that. AT's are known for being thin and detailed, with their HF resolution being more prominent than their bass.

    I have a Sure V-15 Type IV on a vintage Dual 1219 TT when I want that full vintage MM sound.



     
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  10. beercanchicken

    beercanchicken Legendary Stickman

    Location:
    Chicago
    You're right, I shouldn't have chimed in on something I dont have direct experience with. That being said, it's a simple, subjective question with many different variables the most important being hearing A vs. reading about A. when I'm researching something new, I actually enjoy hearing from someone else researching the same thing as me and getting a direct answer regarding the question I actually asked rather than a quote from an article I already Googled and read 5 times or telling me that Product A & B both suck and to get Product C ,D & E instead. I've asked and seen on various venues around the web about Bronze v Black and the answer is often the same. "yes, it is a significant upgrade." "don't go from Blue to Bronze, go directly to Black if you can" My consensus observation, based on my researching is really no less valid than "they both suck, get an AT33 or Soundsmith" or half the other answers that don't answer the question. People process information in different ways and adding 5 more things to an equation can confuse people more. But I'm not dumb, I know why you chose me to pick on. Sorry for ruining the internet
     
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  11. Tom Littlefield

    Tom Littlefield Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Hampshire, USA
    And by the way I did have the Bronze before the Black, I do like the Black much better. More detail, better soundstage and in my opinion not any more surface noise at all.
     
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  12. BKphoto

    BKphoto JazzAllDay

    making a choice based on online views is a round robin of sketchy, good, bad, in the middle advice, IMHO....Had mine set up in 20 mins and all is good with my world...

    like any other cart it depends on whatever else is in the chain...you can easily pick the wrong cart for your arm...
     
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  13. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Two things tend to keep me away from a MC cart.

    1) I am a klutz when it comes to vinyl and TT's. I have every faith, that if I had a MC cartridge, I would somehow find a way to destroy it, most likely, within a year.

    2) Something that I do think is important, and that is, replacing the needle after 1,000 hours or so.

    With a MC cartridge, you can't just pop of the stylus and jam in another one. You need to send it out and have it retipped, which is very expensive.
    Not only that, it is time consuming. All the time that is needed during the retipping process, your TT is without a cartridge. When you receive your MC cartridge back, you will have to reinstall the cartridge all over again.

    There is one other thing...

    I am used to the sound of vintage TT's, be they direct drive, belt driven or idler drive. All cartridges I have owned during my life, have been MM type.

    Most MC cartridges that I have listened to, have had a extremely detailed sound, but that sound was a thin sound and did not have the weight of the MM cartridges, that I grew up with.

    I have no problems with modern day music. Most music that I listen to is music from more modern day times. Meaning that, with few exceptions, it is all digital, from beginning to end.

    I am a convert, as someone who, for many years, had a positive hatred for digital music, properly done, I can now embrace digital music.

    But, when I listen to music, from my era, it is most correct to me, listening to analog music on pure vintage equipment. Vintage TT, MM cartridge, Tube preamp/tube amplification and speakers belonging to that era.
     
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  14. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    We are all members of this forum, as such, we are all members of our online family.

    You haven't ruined the internet. You have not done anything that you need to apologize for.

    What you have done, is to simply present your view and put it out on the table. That (as I see it), is precisely why we are all members of this forum.

    In reading your post, my observation was that you were under the impression, that the bronze was somehow viewed as substandard. Me quoting your post, was, in no way to chastise you. Rather, it was intended to explain, that you might not have the correct impression.

    That is not to say, that my impression was correct and yours was not. It was simply my attempt to communicate with you and offer you a different point of view, that is all.

    It is up to all of us to embrace the opinions of others, even though, they may differ from our own.

    If I had to pick, just one thing in audio, that is more complicated than any thing else (not only is it more complicated than anything else, it is more complicated that everything else all put together), it would be (is), the TT. Compared to a TT, an amp is just an amp, speakers are speakers, we all know what a CD player is...

    With a TT, we have to be concerned about how quiet, from vibration, the motor is, how accurate the speed of rotation is, how well the platter is isolated from the motor. We have to decide what kind of plith to use, what kind of arm to use, how weight is correct for tracking, how much antiskate should we be using, what VTA is correct for a particular cartridge, what kind of arm to use, how long of tonearm to use. For a particular tonearm, should we be using a low, medium or high compliance cartridge? Should we using MM, MC or moving iron? What kind of needle to use, in this case, the bronze or the black with the Shibata stylus? What kind of platter, should I use? What kind of material, if any, should I use on top of the platter? What brand of phono preamp should I use? Should I use a SS or tube preamp. And the list goes on...

    I have a bronze cartridge, not through any brilliance of my own, but because a purchased a restored and upgraded, vintage TT that had an aftermarket tone arm installed, and it had the bronze cartridge. SH has the same TT, but with the black cartridge and is quite fond of it.

    I, like yourself, and the OP, are wondering about the merits of the black cartridge vs. the bronze. The motor is the same, the difference is the stylus. Not all that complicated, remove the bronze, replace with black and put a record on.

    The only teeny tiny, issue for most of us, is that the stylus upgrade is $480 retail. To buy a 2MB new, is several hundred dollars more.

    The reason that I am reading this thread, is to make an attempt to figure out, it such a move, would be a move worth making, would be a improvement in my system (an improvement that I could actually hear).

    BTW... I did just now, buy a black stylus, slightly used on eBay, so let's find out for ourselves! (and we can report back, our findings to the forum!)

    I want you to know, that I have absolutely no more clue than yourself. The comments that I made to your post, were only intended to be my own observations, nothing more.

    I have hand cleaned, my small vinyl collection, I now have a nice TT and stylus, and I am happy with the downstream components, in my system.

    My next (and hopefully final) purchase, was to be a quality tube phono preamp. I have decided to have Steve Deckert, at Decware to build one for me.
     
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  15. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Again I agree. But trying to hear every cart one might be interested in is highly impractical, if not to say impossible. Not every dealer stocks every cart, not every dealer is nice enough to let you hear even what they do have - you can read a thread of mine here about a trip to a hi-fi store in NYC, an experience worth skipping. Therefore, I will be so bold as to say that probably most of us today have to rely on reviews and opinions of peers in making gear choices. Then - we contribute our own impressions, adding to the opinion pool. To my thinking - that's what this forum is all about. I might be wrong, of course...
     
  16. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    It wasn't "dismissive of anyone who...". I said precisely that it was "not for everybody", which wasn't meant to say that it isn't good at all. Quite a few people love it, and I said as much a few times, even in this thread. Anyways, we're running in circles. Life is good, let's be happy.
     
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  17. Vinylsoul 1965

    Vinylsoul 1965 Senior Member

    And I will go one step further that you can hear a major difference in detail, separation and clarity from the Bronze to the Black. The midrange on the black is excellent. I have too wondered if it is time to go the route of an MC cart but I am happy with the Black. I have all four styli (Red, Blue, Bronze and Black) and will use the Blue and the Bronze on records that are more worn. The nice thing is you can swap out the styli (which I love). I am also using it on a Rega RP6 that I cannot adjust VTA and it is FINE. The best thing is to look at the synchronicity between your phono pre and your cart too. I don't mind that the Black does show surface noise...I prefer hearing the detail.
     
  18. Benzion

    Benzion "Cogito, ergo sum" Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    True. On my Debut Carbon, the 2M Blue is a direct improvement over the stock Red. Bronze is as high as I would go on that turntable, even theoretically. Practically, I think Bronze is too lavish for a $400 table. I have my eyes set on a Music Hall 7.3, which comes stock with Bronze. I think it should have a great synergy with that cartridge, and the arm is very similar, or maybe even the same. It is also, amazingly, a Class B recommended component in 2017 Stereophile Recommended List, at a mere $1600, beating many tables costing a few multiples of its price.

    I try to stay on a safe course of looking at the manufacturer's and re-builder's choices. If I ever want to be adventurous in pairing tonearms/ cartridges myself (which is unlikely), there's a good resource for it:

    TONEARM/CARTRIDGE COMPATABILITY | Galen Carol Audio | Galen Carol Audio
     
  19. Gasman1003

    Gasman1003 Forum Diplomat.

    Location:
    Liverpool, England
    Putting it simply, yes it is a major improvement, on my system at any rate.

    I ran the 2M Bronze for about 2 years and was genuinely very pleased with it.
    When it was time for first stylus change I bought the 2M Black and was blown away.
    Very detailed but handles less than perfect vinyl very well.
    3 years later I still am, I will not be looking to change again, just hope they carry on manufacturing it!

    I would give it a try, I'm sure if you weren't satisfied you could sell it, at a very good price.
     
    GKH likes this.
  20. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    Cool. This is convincing me I should go bronze to black. Surface noise is a concern, BUT I already think the bronze has scary amounts of detail, so the black has me intrigued. I also overlooked I will still have the bronze and can change it out for a record if need be. Though every stylus swap I imagine is a risk, it must be sooooo easy to bend the cantilever doing that.
     
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  21. Gasman1003

    Gasman1003 Forum Diplomat.

    Location:
    Liverpool, England
    Don't be too concerned about swapping the styli.

    It is very simple to do and I am one of the clumsiest people around!!

    I appreciate the Black is not cheap, but I don't think you'll be disappointed.

    I honestly can not envisage ever using anything else.
     
  22. Jerry James

    Jerry James Rorum Fesident

    I just upgraded to a black about a month ago, after using a blue for about 2 years and enjoying it very much. I had a red for about a year, before that. I read a lot of the threads on this forum about the black & bronze. I am kind of brand loyal, so I decided to stay within the Ortofon family, and that made my decision easier, I suppose. I was curious as to what I would hear - more surface noise, more bass? Do I save myself around $100 setup fee and gamble that I can set it up myself, even though I am very inexperienced without the proper tools, and maybe damage the cart/records, and not gain the full potential of the cart? In the end I purchased the black, rolled the dice and set it up myself. Maybe I just got lucky with the set up - but what I hear now is amazing. So, so much more detail. Bass that is so robust and tight. Perhaps because I have mostly new and/or very clean pressings and use a VPI 16.5, but I hear no more surface noise than before. The black brings to my ears about the largest improvement in listening pleasure of all the upgrades I've done. So... I'd say go for it!
     
  23. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    My Black stylus arrived yesterday. even though I do not have my intended tube phono preamp in place yet, I wanted to pass along my first impressions of the Black vs. the Bronze stylus.

    FYI, the phone preamp is a SS Emotiva, in a four selector analog switch box. The preamp is a Constellation, 6SN7 tube based, made by Carey Audio. The power amp is a Deckware Tori Jr. with EL34's and NOS rectifier and signal tubes. The speakers are Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater A7-500's, with ALK crossovers and Emmanance Kappa Pro, bass speakers. (the interconnects and speaker cable are ordinary wires)

    I selected the soundtrack album from the 1968, Franco Zeffirelli's production of Romeo and Juliet, the musical score was composed and conducted by Nino Rota, conducting the Prague Philharmonic Orchestra. Record was from a used record bin. This album was in my soundtrack collection from way back when.

    My first thoughts were that it sounded the same as the Bronze. But as I listened, the music was fuller and more organic in nature. The high frequencies were velvety smooth and not at all harsh (I don't do harsh very well).

    There was more detail, but smooth and realistic, not in a bad way. Plucking the strings on the guitar was a touch more realistic. The flute, ever so smooth. The trumpets presented themselves, clear as a bell. The bowed strings, smooth. I noticed a tambourine, more prominent in the mix than before.

    I have two copies of this record, both from used record and thrift stores. I am playing the second one now, for comparison. They both play about the same, though, I could detect a slight bit of groove distortion from time to time, on the first copy.

    Neither copy had a silent background, typical, I would say, of a used record, more noticeable on quieter passages. The recording quality is very clear, all around. The background noise is more noticeable on the dead wax and quieter passages, than with the Bronze stylus.

    Yes, if you have records with a noisy background, it will be more prominent with the Black over the Bronze, which is super quiet, more so than any cart that I have owned before.

    I wouldn't say that the background noise on the Black is any more noticeable than any average cartridge.

    I don't think that it is fair, to blame the cartridge for noise that is present on the record.

    There is nothing that is necessarily inferior or superior to the other cartridge/stylus. They both share the same engine, the difference being the stylus.

    If you have noisy records, with regard to the background, than the Black is not the stylus for you. If you have clean used vinyl or modern audiophile records, with a clean, quiet background, then, maybe, you might want to consider the upgrade.

    I tried, with an "audiophile 180-gram" modern record, with a quiet background, it sounded great! I didn't see the Shibata stylus, being excessively reveling.

    I also tried it with one of my sand amps, using both of my tower front mains, which are, Zu, Omen Definitions and Polk Audio, LSiM707's, both the Black and the Bronze, sound great.

    I agree with Dennis0675, that it could be bright, depending on the system. But this is not a cartridge that I would consider as bright (I don't care for bright cartridges, bright headphones, bright lights...).

    The A7's are not forgiving speakers and mine have JBL super tweeters. You give them something that is bright and unforgiving and you wish that you had not. With regard to the black, brightness was not an issue.

    One thing that highly efficient speakers do is bring out details, the surface noise with the Black was far more noticeable with the A7's than with the tower speakers. I was concerned that it might have been a bit much with the Zu's as compared to the Polk's, buy it wasn't the case. The Zu's were more lifelike and dynamic and generally better sounding with the Black, than the Polk's were.

    Excellent analogy!

    While the Black, does bring out more detail than the Bronze, the Bronze is still an excellent sounding MM cartridge.

    Most would be perfectly happy with either one. The Black that I acquired, was a slightly used one off of eBay for $300.

    Would I pay $475 for the Black stylus, In a word no? But, then, as we get into the better audio equipment and climb the ladder, the steps keep getting smaller and closer together while the costs associated with step, keeps increasing.

    The biggest surprise with the Black, was (and I have not heard this mentioned before in any comparison), the Black has more bass, much more bass!

    Now, usually cartridges that have more high end detail, tend to be brighter and have more bass, not this one!

    My other TT is a Dual 1219 w/Shure V15 Type 4 cart, which is a larger, fuller sounding, more vintage cartridge. It has plenty of bass, that I had previously thought was lacking in the modern, entry level TT's, with Ortofon cartridges that I have heard.

    I was wrong!, the Black is fuller, deeper, richer sounding, than the Shure!

    If you are looking for more bottom end on your vinyl, go for the Black, definitely go for the black.

    If you like to run without a sub, like Dennos0675, go for the Black.

    I have a processor for HT. When I am listening to stereo, I send the preamp output to the processor and direct the sub bass to the LFE's channel. From there is goes to a Crown XTi 2000, running in bridged mono mode and on to a commercial 15" Yorkville sub.

    The commercial Crown amp, is in a rack behind the 60" TV, by running through the processor, I can control the amount of bass, with the processor's remote control. For CD's, streaming and records, I usually set the volume level at 62. With the sub on, I found that I was getting a little bit too much bass, with the Black cartridge, at this setting and I reduced it back to 52. I usually never do this.

    The A7's -3dB point is about 57-Hz, so they do benefit from the added sub. The soundtrack featured a cello, a deep voiced men's chorus, and a large church pipe organ. With the sub muted, these all came out strong and deep through the A7's (with the volume turned up a bit).

    I did listen to Maurice Jarre's soundtrack to the movie, Dr. Zhivago and came away with the same impressions.

    I think that Slippers-on said it best, in a single sentence.

    I did decide to change the stylus back to the Bronze and re-listen to the last two soundtracks.

    Much better! Smooth and warm. I was listening to the music and not listening for the details. I did part with that delicious bass, but I turned the processor back up to 62 and all was better for it.

    And, most importantly, the surface noise went almost to zero. At the end of the records, where the tone arm is sitting in the dead wax, the sound is so quiet, that I wouldn't even notice that there was a record continuing to spin, on the platter. With the Black, I always knew!
     
  24. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    Great review, well written and thoughtful
     
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  25. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Thank You,

    This was one of those subjects that seemed like a perpetual ping pong game, with the ball being on one side of the net, and in the next thread, it was on the other side.

    Finally, curiosity got the better of me, but not $475 better and I found one with low hours on eBay that I picked up for $300.

    Both are very nice cartridges, I could be happy with either. Someone upgrading from the Red or Blue, shouldn't necessarily jump over the Bronze, as it has been suggested. The Black's characteristics are not the best choice for everyone. I think that's important as the Bronze is such a nice cartridge.

    Over the years, all of my audio equipment had disappeared and I had been out of 2-channel mostly for almost 25-years, I started all over with only a pair of earbuds back in 2011.

    While I do generally acknowledge that higher priced things are usually an indication of higher quality, but that does not mean that just because something cost more, that it will be a better product for them.

    I know so many people who have audio equipment that is magnitudes more expensive that the stuff that I have and not one of them can achieve the sound that I can. In fact, most of their systems make me wince, when they show them off to me.

    BTW, interesting discussion from you and other members on the MC thread.

    At the end of the day, it's all fun!
     
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