So is the Ortofon 2m Black that much of an upgrade/improvment over the Bronze?

It is all just good fun. I might get a thorens 160 in the next week and I think I've made up my mind to put a bronze in it.

I am a complete geek for the 2mb but the Delos is a jaw dropper by comparison. It holds all the detail, adds even more to it but somehow sounds more relaxed and comfortable. I think the results are somewhat dependent on the arm, it's adjustments and the phono stage.

That is the end of the trail for me. I'll buy other cars for the same or less money but never any more. As far a mm carts go, I've heard very good things about clearaudio.

 

I love the Thorens TD 160, It is everything I have ever wanted in a TT. But here I am listening to the Black stylus. My record collection is mostly,>90% used records and they do have some surface noise, to say the least.

I'm really liking the dynamics of the Black, it is so organic and involving. Surface noise be damned! A friend is over, who was here last night, and I put on an old Judy Garland album, even with the noise and imperfections, WOW! that lady can sing!

In the future, I will take a look at the Delos, upon your recommendation.

Clearaudio does indeed seem interesting.

I do have a small collection of unopened albums. I had been waiting until I had the right TT and cart.

I can already tell, that I will buying some re-releases of albums that I am fond of.

I have a pair of Wharfedale W90's coming in next week. Can't wait to trying them with both the Bronze and the Black. I have a feeling that it will be a good match.

 

Is it worth the extra money over the Bronze? Hard to say. It is noticeably better but it's like bourbon that was aged 10years vs 15. they are more alike than they are different and that difference is appreciated more by some than most.

Love that analogy.

 

I have had both a Bronze and a Black and found the Bronze a bit dry and the Black super dynamic but too bright/harsh on my system.

I have a PLX-1000 that does have VTA adjustment but after having listened to the Black and my ears hurting (I use headphones mostly) after each listen I investigated further. Bought a USB microscope and found the SRA to be 96 degrees. Perhaps that explains the brightness.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the soundstage and dynamics of the Black but I dont think it suits the PLX (and perhaps the SL-1200) very well. I feel exhausted after every listen and enjoy my MP-110 (which is a substantial downgrade) more although it does of course lack the detail of the Black.

I truly wish it was better suited with the PLX since I know I would like it a lot if it hadn't been for the brightness/harshness to my ears.

 

Hi - Have you tried the Bronze on your Dual 1219? I have a 2m Blue on my 1219, and have wondered if the Bronze was too much cartridge for the 1219. I'm not dissatisfied with the Blue, just curious. But if it's a stunner, I might go for a Bronze. thanks.

 

No I have not. For a few reasons. My 1219 is having some issues with one channel cutting out and I want to send it to fix my dual to have it gone over and serviced. Neither of my TT's have removable head shells. As such I really don't to screw with the cartridges and their alignment.

The Thorens seems happy with the Ortofon and with both the Bronze and Black stylus, that gives me two easy choices.

From the time that I purchased the Dual, I wanted to keep it 100% vintage. I thought that the Shure V15 cartridge was a good fit, and it is.

Between the two TT's, I have a lot of bases covered.

The Bronze is a wonderful sounding cartridge, smooth and velvety. It is wonderful with keeping things musical, while holding down the background noise.

For these reasons, if you are happy with the Blue and how it works on your Dual, I think that the Bronze would work for you. It will be a little bit less technical sounding than the blue.

It seems to have that ability to produce nice music and be forgiving at the same time.

It would have not occurred to me to use an Ortofon on a Vintage Dual. It is something that would be very unlikely for me to pair. But, that is the thing about this audio game. What if I did this, what would it sound like? It is by doing these experiments that you make breakthroughs.

I if decide to try it, I would like to hear about your impressions.

 

Well I just traded my Sonata for a 2M Black to another forum member so after I get it installed I will settle the debate, once and for all!

 

Do report back.

 

U bet!

 

The OM30 Super installed on my SL-1200 is a significant upgrade over the 2M Bronze. Supposedly, it's the same suspension, cantilever and tip, but the 2M series lacks the transparency of the OM series due to the increase in output of the 2M series. I've got the Ortofon 540 MKII, which is supposed to be the same generator as the OM Series, just a different body, so basically an OM40 Super. It has an FG 70 tip. I think it's very close to the OM30 Super as well, and the OM30 Super was often viewed as the sweet spot of that range. Perhaps this thinking also applies to the 2M Series, but based on what I hear from what I do have, never having heard a 2M Black, I'd go for an OM30 Super. It's crazy how neutral and completely devoid of any kind of resonance it is. It's got to be one of the clearest, cleanest, unblurred cartridges I've heard. That said, criticisms levied against it are that it is clinical, digital and aloof. The 540 MKII I have seems like a cartridge that was created to compete with digital; it's up there with the Shure V15-VMR in tracking by some accounts. But it's hard to find much online about the 540 MKII.

Truthfully, though, I'm a Pickering guy. I try these other cartridges for fun and I enjoy having them to listen and compare, but I've got some of the Stanton and Pickering low impedance bodies and original Stereohedron tips and these just blow all of these Ortofons away because they track like crazy, but they also have warmth and dynamics that the Ortofons trade for cold, efficient reproduction. The Ortofon I have that competes with the Stanton and Pickering low impedance bodies is the Ortofon Quintet Black--perhaps lower tier Quintets, too, but I've only got the Black. I haven't heard the new "S" Quintet Black with the sapphire cantilever, either. The Ortofon Quintet Black is very warm, lush, detailed, but well controlled as well. It reaches very high and also very low--seems to have a wider spectrum than most other cartridges I own, plenty of dynamics, excellent top shelf detail and it's so smooth it's like it's buttered, but no grease. Unlike most cartridges I've got with boron cantilevers, there isn't the slightest shrillness, but all the detail and speed is there. Of course, if you don't have an MC input, you've got to go through the added hassle and expense of finding a step up device over the 2M Black. I recommend a SUT. I've tried a few other options, a headamp and the Emotiva XPS-1, but I didn't like either of those for MC--too grainy. I'm going to build a Leach headamp soon for fun, but I don't expect even the most sophisticated version to outdo the SUT.

The Quintet Bronze seems to be the sweet spot in the Quintet line up.

 

I'm very curious as to your views of the Black vs. the Sonata.

I have never owned a Sonata myself, but for female vocals and jazz listening, I was impressed with it.

Since, I don't have removable head shells on either of my TT's, I won't be switching cartridges.

Otherwise, I would have already bought a Sonata. It is somewhere on the list, unless I decide to try a MC cartridge.

At first, I was concerned that the Black would be kind of clinical, from some of the reviews that I have read about it.

I did not find this to be true, just the opposite. Never expected to hear the bass that I was hearing.

 

Wow, thanks for the well-thought reply. I had considered seeking out a Shure V15 T-III for the Dual, since that's what I had on my 1218 in college, but between reports of deterioration/oxidation of the metals in those vintage cartridges and praise for the Ortofon, that's how I went.

The shop that restored my garage sale Dual 1219 (Hawthorne in Seattle) suggested a Grado but I had read of 'Grado hum' so I avoided that without a trial.

I'm happy I went with the Blue - What did you mean by 'technical-sounding?' Also, I do think I'll try the Bronze when the Blue starts showing signs of age, and thanks for your impressions!

 

Any time we try to quantify what is a sensory perception, it becomes difficult to express that feeling or impression in words. At least it is that way for me.

The improvement of the blue, over the red, is a different stylus, the motor being the same.

The different stylus is bringing out more detail, which shows what the motor is capable of.

The Bronze/Black is the same type of relationship as the Red is to the Blue. The Blue brings out more detail. But it is limited to what the motor is able to produce, given better conditions, meaning an upgraded stylus.

As you climb the audio TT/cartridge ladder. There are two objectives, from my point of view. To hear more detail and to make the recording sound more realistic. While those things should naturally go hand in hand equally, in the real world, they don't often do. Sometimes the focus is to one side or the other. For lack of better terms, I'm using the word technical in place of detail and musical as meaning, sounding more natural.

The blue stylus will bring out more detail, so it may be more "technical"

The Bronze cartridge is an improvement in the motor and will sound more "musical". I think that it is a wonderful sounding cartridge. When listening to it, all I experience is the music as a whole entire experience.

Likewise, the Black is more technical in its ability to bring out more detail. I have and like both cartridges.

Those who prefer the Bronze over the Black, and there are many, do so because they find the Bronze has a quieter background, particularly on used vinyl. And, they tend to be able to focus more on the music as a whole, than on the detail.

Keep in mind, these are just opinions, YMMV!

That being said, when the time comes, I believe that you will enjoy the music that the Bronze, brings to the table.

About the Sure V15 series of cartridges, that is true, sometimes. There are perfectly excellent V15 cartridges out there being used by our many members.

 

Will he do it....
Ortofon 2M Bronze MM Moving Magnet Cartridge incl. Stylus - !

(Sorry to hijack this thread, which is supposed to be about the Black)

 

I have found in most things high end audio - there is a strong law of diminishing returns. Sounds like it is well at work here with the lower Ortofons...

 

Well, I had a Black and I just didn't like it. Music wasn't fun to listen too. Some have called it a sterile sound. That's an apt, though probably subjective, description. But clearly one many like and I can see why. I think it simply is giving you what is in the grooves, nothing more or less. Can't fault it for that, but it wasn't exciting either imo. Looks purdy on the arm though! But this opinion is coming from a guy that loves his ATMLX150 on a VPI Prime...not sure that makws a lot of sense! Don't know what that says about me, but I know what I like and I am an extremely critical listener with excellent hearing. I think once you get to this level, it gets awfully subjective. People like different sounds which is likely why different brands have different characteristics. I think I've just become used to the AT sound and will likely move up their chain over time.

 

sounds like I might like the Bronze. Excellent real world description...thanks! I wonder if it would better the ATMLX150? Anyone have an opinion on that as I'm sure some of you have upgraded from the 150.

 

I have been listening to the Black for a few months now and have gone back to the Bronze for now.

Over 90% are used and most have been cleaned by hand. But a used record is a used record and with the Black, there are few with quiet backgrounds.

As a previous poster mentioned, you will hear what ever is in the groves, both the good and the annoying.

I have not listened to a an AT MLX-150 but most of the AT cartridges, though detailed also come across to me as being a bit on the bright side and sometimes, a bit thin sounding.

I really like the smooth overall sound of the Bronze. It is a full sounding cartridge, I think that I do prefer the Bronze for general listening.

It is a day and night difference in the background noise (referring to used records), switching from the Black back to the Bronze. That is one thing that I noticed off the bat, when I received my Vinyl Nirvana, Thorens TD-150 Super with a Bronze cartridge. Yes you can still hear the clicks and pops but they are more in the background, instead of in the foreground, with the music.

You may not find the Bronze detailed enough for your tastes, coming from the MLX-150, which you commented and was my general understanding that the MLX-150 will be a more detailed cartridge.

When I bought the Black, I did a first impressions review, you can do a search under SandAndGlass and Ortofon Bronze Black/

Actually there are several references that I made, in addition to the review, check them out for my comments and comments made by other members.

They all boil down to what you, myself and others have said here.

 

You are absolutely correct about the AT line skewing a tad bright. The 440 is too much so imo, though I still like it. The 150 is only a tad bright but I like it a lot. I'm letting price skew my opinion too much as I don't understand how they can sell this for $350. Had I spent $1000, I feel like I would figure I am done but as it is, now I'm thinking it must get a lot better if you make a big jump. I think I will order a Bronze, not that it's a huge jump but it sounds like a practical upgrade. Should be easy enough to sell here if it isn't my thing. Thanks for the comments!

 

I don't find the 150MLX bright at all on my SL-1200. Compared to the Bronze, it's more detailed, smoother and a tad faster. I think the 150MLX is a better value.

 

In my experience, the black is extremely unforgiving with surface noise. Much of my vinyl is used too, and when I changed from the bronze, it was startling, especially once there was some wear on the black. The Dynavector 20x2L I'm using right now is far more forgiving with surface noise and far less analytical than the black. Of course, it's system, dependent and YMMV.

 

i have had my 2M Black since March and after ample burn in and an upgrade from a ProJect Debut Carbon Esprit to a VPI Prime Scout I wrote a review of the cartridge. I am no audiophile but rather a lover of Music and I appreciate fine sounding equipment. I started with a 2M red, moved up to a Blue then got the black. Having said that below are my thoughts on the 2M Black:


1) I upgraded my turntable and amplifier in May. I now run the 2M Black on a VPI Prime Scout and an upgraded Cronus Magnum to a Magnum II. The sound difference between the two component combinations is like night and day. I noticed increased detail back in my April post with the cartridge right out of the box. However, now with the improved turntable and upgraded amplifier as well as the "break in" period, the sound is absolutely amazing. The turntable upgrade speaks for itself but the most important aspect of the the amplifier upgrade was a 6db of gain in the phono stage. Now with 45db of gain, the power to run the Black to its fullest is now available to me. That 6 db of gain increase directly affects what I am hearing and what the stylus is pulling out of the groove. The result is more detail and clarity from the music I thought I knew every nuance of by listening for the last 30 years. VERY IMPORTANT:'Make sure your amplifier or phono stage pushes at least 44-45 db in gain to fully exploit the powers of the Black.

2) I added a TTWeight Carbon Fiber mat to the turntable. It added about 3-4 mm plus an album so I had to adjust the VTA. VERY IMPORTANT: get your VTA/SRA and Azimuth set correctly so the cartridge tracks perfectly. You can use instruments and software to do this but I did it by hand and by ear. I fine tuned it by ear and found the 2M Black sounds best, fullest sound and widest sound stage with a slight downward angle and perfect azimuth adjusted. Also, the manual calls for 1.4-1.7 g tracking force. I found 1.5 to be perfect with the azimuth and VTA settings on my VPI. Take your time and do this right. Your patience will be rewarded!

3) Is this a great cartridge? Yes. Is it perfect? No, nothing is. There is always a trade off. This cartridge picks up everything, I mean everything in the groove. I have found that records must be throughly cleaned before playing. Every pop and click is accentuated, even on the higher end VPI. You will hear details you were not aware of. For example, the non musical sounds and effects in Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon pop out at you, especially in good headphones (I have Grado RS1e's). Vocals, male or female are outstanding with the Black. Listen to Dylan, Billie Holiday and you will hear fantastic details. The stylus does an outstanding job of separating instruments in jazz or classical. It even reveals hidden sounds. In my George Szell conducted Schubert "Unfinished Symphony" the 2M Black reveals musicians dropping things and moving chairs in quiet parts. Your soundstage will be expanded and that you will hear the effect of that immediately.

4) Because of the detail this cartridge picks up, older worn albums and poorly recorded, poorly pressed and poorly mixed records reveal thier deficiencies in a big way. Do not get discouraged or think the cartridge is at fault...it is not it is the recording or the album itself. I have had to replace a fair number of my favorite albums from my high school and college years because of abuse from former inferior equipment, former inferior friends and crazy college parties. All those skips, scratches and surface noises are very apparent on these old records. I have replaced some albums with excellent Japanese pressings and with new or "newer" well reviewed reissues. On these excellent pressings, the 2M Black excels! Pay attention to reviews on pressings, I started doing this and so far haven't wasted money on crappy pressing that will no doubt disappoint when exposed to this cartridge.

Bottom line, this is one of THE best MM cartridges you can get, especially for the price. I am very happy with it now that it is finely tuned and I fully understand it's pros and cons and can prepare for it. The 2M Black is like a fine sports car, fail to tune it up properly and give it crappy gas and it simply won't perform. That's not the fault of the car, it's the fault of the owner...same with your 2m Black.

Good luck with your choice!

Steve

 

Do you still have your Black cartridge? If so, just buy the Bronze stylus.

I do think that the Black is an excellent cartridge, but it is at its best when listening to clean vinyl, with a black background.

I do think the the Bronze/Black cartridge is a great deal, because with the purchase of an additional stylus, you have in effect, two different sounding cartridges for a modest investment.

 

I sold it to a forum member but I have read your suggestion before and wish I had kept it.

 

That cart is likely the best value in hi fi! I would be happy with it at any reasonable price. At under $500 it's a steal compared to others I have heard, though I have never heard a $1000 plus cart.