So my friend is having trouble with his downstairs neighbor... sound isolation.*

A buddy of mine in Los Angeles lives in a condo complex, and a new neighbor just moved in downstairs from his unit. The neighbor apparently doesn't work and is home all day long, and my friend describes him as someone who likes to complain a lot.

My friend is a music fan, but he is considerate enough to try to not bother those around him. One afternoon around 3PM, he felt like enjoying some Grand Funk Railroad at a bit-louder-than-usual volume, and immediately the neighbor started pounding on the ceiling with a broomstick. Such is life in a multi-unit home sometimes.

My pal was asking me for some advice on how to prevent the music from getting the neighbor upset. Apparently it was the bass that was causing the most disturbance. My friend says the room is smallish, and he was using some monitors (old Advents) perched on boxes, so the speakers are not directly on the floor above the neighbor's ceiling. The floor is carpeted.

Is there any way he can isolate the room from the downstairs neighbor's apartment?

 

Grand Funk? Maybe the neighbour has some taste.

 

Are headphones an option?

 

That's a tough one. Sounds like the neighbor is the problem, not your friend. Unless your friend is playing GFR at concert volumes, I don't think he's being unreasonable. And it's not like he is playing his music on full range speakers with tons of bass; they are old monitors. Would your friend be comfortable in talking to his neighbor in trying to come to a compromise? If not, it's probably either use headphones or move, unfortunately.

 

Yeah, I know...

He does use headphones in the evening, but sometimes ya just need to use speakers, right?

 

I agree with you entirely, and I suggested having a chat with the neighbor, if only to establish some sort of ground rules compromise. It sounds like the guy downstairs is not very reasonable.

 

Killing the neighbor and getting away with it is prolly not an option, but are there not condo rules that allow your friend to listen to music till 10pm like there are here ? In that case is not his neighbor out of order if he complains in a formal way ? And don't get me started on what he can do with the broomstick

 

My recently-moved in upstairs neighbor obviously has a subwoofer. I'm sure I don't have to tell anyone here that is precisely the extremely low frequency tones these speakers produce are the ones that cut through walls like butter. She frequently plays music during late night/early morning hours and I've had to knock on her door a couple times so far. The rumbling and thumping coming through the ceiling are unacceptable. On the other hand, I've got a nice system and play it pretty loud sometimes and have never had a noise complaint in my 15 years in the building. The difference is that my speakers are not overly bass-heavy, sit on spikes off the floor, and are not placed against a wall I share with anyone. I also shut it off or turn it way down after 10 pm, per the lease agreement (and common sense).

While what you're doing sounds reasonable, especially if it's mid-afternoon, but it is prudent to be aware of how bass can penetrate walls. And also, it seems to be a single incident that's being described. Maybe he was just in a bad mood.

 

Don't even get me started on this kind of situation. Been there in frigging spades.

About 7 or 8 years ago, a family moved in upstairs from me, people I had never met before. Now, I'm the music guy, but THEY were the problem. What I mean is, I realized later on that they had been working on me from day one, literally trying to drive me out as well as the poor neighbors in back who were nice and didn't cause any problems. They used noise as a weapon, banging on the plumbing with a hammer and that sort of thing (And that is SO the tip of the iceberg, let me tell ya'). So, I do understand how noise issues from above can be incredibly-annoying to the point where you just can't take it anymore. Thankfully, the upstairs neighbors are gone now, but it took three years of work through many different agencies.

That's why I say this (Speaking to the OP here): Tell your friend he should not take this situation lightly. If he is willing to try and work it out with the guy below, then great. But tell him to be well-aware of his rights and what he can do to defend himself if things go bad. These types of neighbor situations are especially-tricky, particularly in legal terms, and if the downstairs neighbor IS an excessive complainer and decides to take action, your friend will want to be prepared for such a thing. I'm not saying he should go full-on silent either. Your friend has rights, same as the guy below. I'm just saying that he should not take the situation lightly, and he should be fully-aware of the implications. These upstairs/downstairs scenarios can be a real hornets' nest.

The situation with my upstairs neighbors really did a job on me. I'm STILL having problems from it, and they were evicted like two years ago. I've had problems with OCD my entire life, and the neighbor situation totally sent that into overdrive. Suddenly I was getting panic attacks on a daily basis, plus major problems sleeping (obviously), which in itself caused all kinds of issues. And on top of that, the landlord put the property up for sale the same day he evicted them, so I've been on the hunt for a new place since then, which is why I say be careful. The neighbor thing can be a dangerous game (for BOTH sides).

 

Just to be fair, I think you're describing 2 different scenarios. You were besieged by neighbors who were deliberately trying to be annoying with noise. The OP's friend was jamming to some Grand Funk when it was his neighbor who complained.
-edit- I think we're on the same side of the issue but your example doesn't make that 100% clear.

 

Some people are over-sensitive. Some people, in the dead of night, can hear the faintest high frequency sounds being made three floors away in an apartment or condo building. Some people barely notice the pounding low freqs generated by idiots using subwoofers coupled to the floor in the same buildings.

Too many people these days, want the freedom to enjoy good, loud music in apartments and condos that were, demonstrably, never designed to accommodate such a thing. I've got a sideline property management (Reitter Management) business with a private business partner. We manage a couple of our own buildings, a larger number for third parties, and we manage two mid-size condo buildings. We deal with noise complaints on a regular basis.

The partiers - that is, the tenants who invite guests who then treat the apartment as a rented party room - are easy to deal with. After receiving a current complaint, one of our superintendents knocks on the door and tells the tenant to turn it down. Tenants who persist in such partying end up being hauled in front of the the provincial Residential Tenancy Board for a hearing in which the sitting member will usually make it clear that the freedom to entertain guests does not confer the right to also disturb neighbors. Tenants who still persist thereafter end up being evicted. It can be a nasty business.

Tenants who are disturbed by loud music and react by banging on floors or ceilings, are only slightly less foolish than the noisemakers. It's always better to first make an attempt to discuss the situation with a noisy neighbor based on the chance that the noisemaker may not realize the problem he's causing. So there are extremes on both sides.

The point is, irrespective of whether a tenant is foolishly abusive or merely a music lover, that apartment and condo buildings have always demanded the kind of consideration for neighbors that may preclude the kind of music listening that someone likes best or to which some feels he's entitled.

Basically, my view is that if someone wants to listen to music in a way that will consistently (or merely frequently) disturb neighbors, rent or buy a fully detached house instead. If that person can't afford to do such a thing, too bad - he usually has to turn down the music.

In almost every case I've personally dealt with, speaker installations were laughably inept. Floorstanding speakers large enough to pressurize rooms of four times the size to 100SPL or more were being used in one bedroom and two bedroom apartments with barely 12'x18' living rooms; surround sound systems with subwoofers being played at nearly movie theatre SPLs; rear-ported speakers sitting on shelves mounted on a wall adjoining the neighbouring apartment; and on and on. In most such situations, using a little Scosche SPL1000 meter, I've been able to measure average listening levels ranging a bit above 80db, and in a few really extreme cases a little over 90db. Absolute stupidity. In almost every case, the offending tenant declared, "I've paid my rent and I can do what I want." Well actually, no you can't you self-entitled so-and-so.

How about some perspective, though. What's a manageable apartment listening level? What's the disturbance threshold in any given apartment or condo building? I've done some measurements in a variety of apartments and condos, and (in my own apartment in a building of my own in which I did some soundproofing) some sound transmision mitigations.

Wood-frame, low rise apartment buildings and condos are usually just enormous echo and vibration chambers. Acoustically isolating wood construction includes (among other things), solid glued & screwed bridgers between joists, fire retarding acoustic batting between joists and between wall studs, a layer of 1/4" rubber tacked to the top of the joists before the subfloor is laid down and screwed into place, a layer of 1/8"-1/4" cork or rubber sheet laid on top of the subfloor with hard flooring (engineered wood, solid parquet, laminate) tight-floated on top. If you don't have at least a couple of those things, the floor construction will act just like a huge loudspeaker.

Reinforced concrete construction is only slightly less costly to sound-abate (if not totally sound-proof). What I retrofit into concrete condos and apartment buildings is flooring to abate sound. All the old flooring comes up, the concrete deck is smoothed, prepped and cleaned, a layer of 1/4" rubber sheeting goes down, then engineered T&G goes down, usually tight-floated. If my contractor puts down hardwood parquet, he glues down cork sheet instead of rubber. Not much I can do about adjoining unit walls though. However, the flooring upgrade in concrete buildings is usually a remarkable improvement.

Listening levels are another matter altogether. In the evenings, in my nine-storey building in the heart of downtown Toronto, background noise levels are usually somewhat noticeable. It's no different from living in midtown Manhattan, central London, downtown Chicago or any other huge, busy, metropolitan hub city or major capital city. Double and triple window glazing helps, but the background noise is still notable for people who aren't used to it (especially friends who are visiting from the residential suburbs). What that means to me personally, is the need for a music listening level averaging 68db SPL at my listening position that is approximately 8'/2.4 meters from the front of the speakers. At that listening level, I can hear every musical detail, double-bass resonates when NHOP is going nuts, the music has impact or delicacy or whatever the musicians intended. By comparison, again, to me personally, the 80db SPL listening levels of thoughtless tenants is not only deafeningly loud, it's also impossibly irritating to neighbors, and without doubt physically damaging to hearing.

If someone wants to damage their hearing while listening to music in their privately rented or owned, fully detached house where they aren't going to disturb neighbors, good luck to them and my condolences. Thoughtlessly, regularly imposing the resulting noise and vibration on neighbors in an apartment or condo building though, is unacceptable under any circumstances.

So, what's the actual SPL being created in the listening room. Estimates like, "Oh I think it's such-and-such" without the use of an actual SPL meter are just BS and don't help anybody sort things out. What's the actual SPL being heard by the neighbor(s)? I've come across tenants who claimed to be experiencing terrible noise disturbances who wanted to live in an apartment or condo that was absolutely silent, something which is absolutely and unrealistically silly. It's impossible to live in an absolutely silent apartment or condo building or multi-residential building of any kind. But, what are the actual SPLs being measured? What is the actual speaker set up? What does the flooring consist of (never mind what it looks like on the surface - pull up a corner and actually look underneath)? In most apartment and condo situations, a tenant who invests in sound-abating flooring installation without first doing a self-check on actual SPLs, is mostly likely going to waste a lot of money on somebody else's property. A condo owner has access, through the Board of Directors and through the property manager, to the building construction as-built plans and can use those plans to understand the construction and the best ways to retrofit or renovate his unit for sound abatement.

I had a very good apartment tenant - moved into the building in 2008 - who was also a music lover; mostly jazz and classical that he and his wife love best. They hosted regular weekend music listening get-together with friends. Nice people; nice building. The problem was, the building wasn't conducive to private music listening even at my personally preferred aforementioned 65-70db SPL. It was important enough to them, so I proposed a deal: split the cost of sound abatement. They decided to turn down the music even more and try living with that for a few months. They eventually decided that the couldn't live with it, but that they also didn't want to move because they loved the building and the location. So we split the cost, I sent in my contractor, and about four days later they had a new engineered hardwood floor laid on top of rubber. Magic - for $6,500 CAN altogether (including tax - $3,250 for each of us). They're still in the building, both retired, still hosting music appreciation parties, but now at that 65-70db SPL without disturbing any neighbors.

 

Buy or rent a house! Problem solved!

I lived 18 years in many apartments, been there and done that with many a neighbor. Very frustrating and could easily effect your well being.

Twenty years ago I bought a house and never had to worry about it ever again.
Just this morning I came in at about 1:00am and spun music ridiculous loud for a few hours.

There were times when I first moved in and would walk outside just to make sure my surrounding neighbors couldn't hear at 3 in the morning. I've got a fairly good distance on my property line between neighbors but never the less I was paranoid from all those years living in a apartment.

Thanks for the heads up on Grand Funk, I am spinning them as I type at a ludicrous rock concert level! They were a great group back in the day. Life's Good!

 

Cool thread. I have some neighbors in my condo that bitch and moan about everything. I never play music very loud and never even approaching loud after 10pm. These people are noisy as hell themselves but not with music. They are just generally stupid or ignorant. Slamming doors slamming cabinets they smoke like crazy and I can actually smell it in my unit sometimes on the first floor.

Anyway things sort of came to a head and we didn't really get a long, my landlord basically was cool with anything I did because most of the other people do not like my neighbors cuz they are just weird and abrasive. I recently invested in a very awesome headphone setup (IMO) and I noticed after a few weeks of not really using my speakers much things overall were much quieter and we became more friendly. I still keep my distance and am weary of them but I am the type of person that wants to like his neighbors and have a mutual respect and do not want to deal with animosity and all the negative BS that goes with that.

It's our homes and we all deserve peace and comfort.
All this really made me reassess if I was actually in the wrong or right and maybe I was being the A-hole sometimes even it was 75db and 6pm on a Saturday maybe it really sucked for them. I do have rear ported bookshelves about 3.5 ft off the floor and about 2ft from the adjoining bedroom walls though !

I've recently thought of changing speakers... Obviously something not rear ported but I am not sure how much difference that would make. Also does anyone know an accurate sound measurement app for android ?

 

Unnaceptable. I only listen in the afternoon; don't even throw noisy parties or gatherings ever, not even on Saturdays.

Were they just evil for the sake of it ? Or they had some agenda ? Interesting. I've some neighbors with whom I have similar issues, They do not involve music, but they have 2 gay teenage sons, who insist I ¨mistreat¨ them, when actually I never even said hi or crossed looks with them. I consider myself lucky they don't claim I try to molest me coz that would constitute serious legal trouble. Their dad (a dangerously primitive, much younger and stronger-than-me trog) has however threatened me with ¨breaking my head¨ several times. They told me they wanted me to sell and move out. Why ? They just don't like me. Irrational ? You bet ! But that's the explanation I got. Speaking of getting on someone's nerves.

My downstairs neighbor, a 70-year-old retired lady, complains to no end about my 2 weekly afternoon loud-listening sessions (80dbs), averaging 1.5 hs each, tops. She also complains about toilets being flushed, water running down the pipes, footsteps and whatnot. Fortunately I'm a soft talker or she would complain about that too.

BUT....and ironically, she's partially deaf and have mega-noisy family gatherings from which you could make out every word uttered (read shouted at the top of everyone's lungs at the same time) if you happened to be interested in it, blasts his telly till 2 AM and god helps you if you dare complain. My wife and I have given up weekend movie watching through the HT to cut down on these complints, and now we watch with 2 tiny 7wpc mini-monitors the old crock cannot hear; it was that or watching the movies during daytime. Don't think so.

Dude, 80 dbs is where the fun begins. You're obviously not a metalhead. I personally peak at 83 according to my cellphone app.

 

. . . And you'll end up just as deaf as your neighbor if you keep it up. It's not funny - it's seriously damaging to your hearing over the medium term - and it has no place in a multi-residential building. When you hit the age of 50, and the occasional tinnitus you were experiencing becomes permanent and you begin having real trouble making out dinner conversation in a busy restaurant, and all your high frequency sensitivity above 6,000 Hz has basically disappeared, it will be too late to turn it all down. Enjoy your music.

Why does anybody think it's okay to impose what they're doing on neighbors? You want to live - or have to live - in a multi-residential building, but you conduct yourself as if you're living in a fully detached private house. It's poor conduct, in my view. Just as awful, listening levels that loud are physically damaging your hearing.

 

I'm 55 and no probs so far according to my otolaryngologist. If I do end up deaf as a pole, I'll have the satisfaction of having rocked out for many decades, no regrets there. Audition is lost more to age than anything else, unless you really abuse your hearing bigtime by discharging firearms or working in noisy environments without ear protection, so I'll be having all the fun I can before old age takes my sense away, but thanx for the advice anyway.

I don't know whether a single house on top of another one (and that's it, no more neighbors) qualifies as multi-residential according to your norms but down here it barely does (exception made of certain common services like water and the like) The old lady had resorted to the police and made the cops lost their temper. That was a really funny situation to watch. They said that according to the law I was entitled to what I was doing and they could do nothing about it, and that they wouldn't want to hear from her again unless someone were actually trying to kill her or something really important. I was in the middle of a black metal record played LOUD when they arrived. Case closed

 

I should have added my house is full stone, concrete walls topped by hardwood, with 30-50cms brick-and-mortar walls construction. So the sound doesn't cut through floors and walls like it does through wood, plaster and plastic.

 

Action Pact, I feel your friends pain. I lived in apartments for many years, and being a music and equipment lover, I have had issues with bothering the neighbors. Apartments are built really poorly in most cases. I lived in apartments where I could hear normal conversations through the walls. Forget about Led Zeppelin. I finally got to buy a modest house and I am so happy not to bother anyone.

 

"The neighbor apparently doesn't work and is home all day long, and my friend describes him as someone who likes to complain a lot."

Is this a retired person or someone with a legitimate reason to not be working? Because if this is just some bum faking an illness and collecting free benefits then they deserve no respect. Heck even the bible says such bums should starve to death! Tell him to find out what's what in this regard. I'll bet the other tenants or the maintenance crew know. I have a 500 lb. layabout living upstairs from me and everyone seems to know he's a drunk, a dopehead, rents out one room illegally, etc. I just hope he doesn't come crashing through the ceiling one day.

 

Sure just blast his a$$ back to work.

 

In my experience, he's screwed.

I had this problem with my very first high end system. Saved up for two years to buy it. Spent almost every lunch hour drooling over what I wanted for most of those two years. Dropped close to $20k on the system, which was an insane amount to spend now, but for a 26 year old it was obscene.

Once the system was set up, I finally sit back to enjoy. Within five minutes my upstairs neighbor was knocking on the door asking me to turn it down. I did, but he was back in just a few minutes. Turned it down again to the point where it wasn't all that enjoyable. He came back again.

"Dude, it sounds like it's playing in my living room."

I figured he was exaggerating, so I went up to his apartment to listen. Sure enough, it was just about as loud.

I was pretty devastated. Pretty much could only listen to music when he was gone. Fortunately he travelled for work a little bit, but it still sucked.

There's probably not much he can do. My last apartment had concrete everything and I could blast music without my neighbor, whose bedroom was inches away, ever complaining. But my loft, which was a warehouse conversion, just didn't isolate enough and there was nothing we could really do about it.

 

Yeah, that's the stuff! Make insulting and derogatory comments about total strangers. Builds up the hate. Toss fallacious biblical allusions in too. Excuses any sort of bad behavior.

Come on . . . Help with suggestions, not anger.

 

Time to love and a time to hate!

 

What?!? Okay, maybe if burning hatred and derision ever solved any problems. But it never does. It just aggravates an already bad situation. I never give my own tenants a chance to vent. I force them to grow up and act like the adults they're supposed to be. They either negotiate fairly and equitably to make ongoing peace, or they end up at a hearing and lose any possibility of deciding the outcome for themselves.

Tenants have to demand equitable and fair reactions from landlords and property managers. Tenants have to understand how their preferences and habits might interfere with others before deciding on a place to live. And if tenants can't find a place to live that accommodates their habits, then they have to change their habits. That's part of what being a civilized, responsible adult is about.