Soft Machine; the 2007 remasters.

Just an update:

I ended up buying the new remaster of "Third" (didn't want to wait for the Japanese disk to come in the mail, I did want to save a few bucks, and I also wanted to have a copy of the Proms show).

Jeff may be right about the no noise, but with nothing but the old LP to compare this with, I can't say that it's particularly noticeable or distracting. I'm quite happy with Byrne's remastering job. Mostly it still sound terrible, but it's a big improvement over the LP. A perfectly listenable presentation of a wonderful, although poorly recorded, album.

Thanks to everyone for their input!

L.

 

Well, yes it does. I specifically wrote of how the flute solo sounded, for example. There's more high frequency detail in the newest one, either due to noise reduction, different tapes, EQ, or a combination of those. But these are small increments.

but I think maybe to you 'no noise' automatically equates to 'no breath'. Maybe the hiss is the breath to you, but really, it's just hiss. Noise reduction algorithms are very, very smart these days -- and you can always listen to the 'removed' stuff to see if it's got musical content.

Or maybe they actually found the original masters. It's been known to happen.

They both sound good to me, for slightly different reasons. (Leaving aside the inherenty dodgy sound of this album)

 

Yeah, even audiophile geek that I tend to be, I feel a bit odd discussing Third all that much. The album is easily amongst the worst sounding major label releases I've ever heard.

Having said that, there are sections on the Japanese DSD release that just sound better to my ears. I also think it has a bit softer tone to it. The new one is really some pretty nice work, however.

Btw, I'm pretty sure the old Columbia is no-noised heavily in spots. They were experimenting with no-noise around the time they issued it (1991 or so...?). I no longer own it, but I recall comparing the Japanese release to it and on "Out Bloody-Rageous" the Columbia was no-noised in extreme fashion.

A recent comparison of Santana/McLaughlin on Columbia revealed the same thing. The 2003 Anseni remaster wiped the floor with the old Columbia "Red Hot Series" issue, which was no-noised to death.

 

I continue, after some very obsessive repeated listenings, to be very pleased with the remaster. Someday I might pick up the DSD just to hear it all again with a bit more breath, but for now I'm delighted to have a decent remaster.

It is a terrible shame, however, that the original recording was so poorly done. A quick listen to "Fourth," which was well-recorded, but contains inferior material makes me so wish that the material on "Third" had been captured in the studio in all it considerable glory. These performances of these particular compositions with these particular arrangements were are the band's brightest hour. They put a lot of thought into the shape and texture of these performances/recordings. It's such a shame they were not realized sonically in the end.

L.

 

For comparison, here's a 1-minute piece of 'Facelift'; one file is from the new remaster, the other from the DSD-sourced japanese CD (not saying which is which, though it shouldn't be hard to tell if you've read along). They have been 'level-matched' by dropping one of them down by ~1 dB (as per replaygain values). This segment was chosen because it has both quiet and loud parts (with an obvious tape edit!). These are .wav files.

http://www.badongo.com/file/2744269
http://www.badongo.com/file/2744287

 

The first is the DSD Jpn...
The second is the remaster...

(I have both so I have done this comparison...but with Moon in June...now THAT is a strange one...put up the first 30 seconds of those!!!!)

 

Yeah, the second is the remaster and it has been opened up a bit, which compensates pretty well for the no-noise. It's a damn good remaster, but still not my choice. I think Byrne's EQ work was very minimal and effective, I just wish he wouldn't have clamped down quite that hard on the NR.

 

I think it's time to bring the original Columbia into the discussion. This is a sample (normalized to 90%) . I have been listening to all 3 of these and I must say that maybe I prefer the original Columbia disc. IMO it has a live feel (air) that the other two are missing (only based on these samples).

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=5FDAE6354018F456

 

You don't hear that as no-noised? Try also listening to the opening of "Out Bloody-Rageous."

 

The tape edit is easily spotted in this spectral view from the Colombia cd. And also the use no-noise.

 

It is heavily no-noised.

 

The first one is indeed the DSD, the second is the new one.

One thing I like about the new one is evident in the quiet part of this clip -- the flute sounds like it's playing in a 'live', acoustic space (and thus has some echo), which the hiss blots out on the DSD. And if that's achieved by NR, so be it.

Btw, the one I had to drop down a dB to replaygain-match them, was the DSD ! But that may be due to the segment I picked.

 

And again I'd ask : how can you tell for sure that it's no-noise versus a lower-generation tape?

 

You actually think a recording from 1970 would have this little hiss on the master tape? The Softs must have had access to some stunning equipment.

Even if done in Dolby A, which I doubt, there is simply no way, IMO.

Not to mention that I can hear it. Is it far better than early attempts at no-noise? By a huge margin, yes.

 

On the loud parts I hear tape hiss that I don't hear in the quiet parts. But I suppose it could be different tapes that are edited together?

 

Didn't Hugh Hopper once say that every song on Three was made by editing different tapes together?

 

"Facelift" certainly is assembled from different live performance tapes, and the first half of "Moon In June" was recorded by Wyatt solo with the band only coming in for the second half. The band section of "Out-Bloody-Rageous" (between the two obviously tape-manipulated parts) and "Slightly All The Time" are the only ones that stand a chance of being fairly contiguous performances, and I doubt that either one actually is.

 

Hello,

First time, first words... so please be patient with me;


I'm going to buy 1+2 on Big Beat but what I just found:

http://www.squidco.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=S&Product_Code=7890
http://www.squidco.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=S&Product_Code=7891

Please let me know if a.-m. are sth interesting in sound quality or rather take Big Beat?

...aha!, sorry for all the current and future grammatical errors (I'm Polish)

 

I haven't heard these, but I'd be really surprised if they offered any improvement over the Big Beat twofer, which sounds fantastic.

--Paul Curtis

 

Could somebody post the EAC log from the original (no-noised) Columbia CD of Third?

I just got the BGO CD, and compared to the Japanese DSD mastering, it also sounds highly NR'd. Since BGO never used that stuff I can only assume that Sony sent them an already no-noised digital master to work with, or the Japanese disc literally added loads of hiss (I doubt this, especially since it has much less top end and more bass).

Here is the BGO log:

Track 1
Filename C:\Documents and Settings\1\My Documents\My Music\Track01.wav

Peak level 69.3 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 0277BBBC
Copy OK

Track 2
Filename C:\Documents and Settings\1\My Documents\My Music\Track02.wav

Peak level 75.1 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 4E2E5FD6
Copy OK

Track 3
Filename C:\Documents and Settings\1\My Documents\My Music\Track03.wav

Peak level 86.5 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC C47C16E9
Copy OK

Track 4
Filename C:\Documents and Settings\1\My Documents\My Music\Track04.wav

Peak level 88.8 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 554C2D13
Copy OK

 

This album is never going to sound better than the LP, and the LP was nothing to brag about sonically. Enjoy the music, folks.

 

from the old CBS CD, I only have data for Facelift

Left Right
Min Sample Value: -27032 -26859
Max Sample Value: 27193 25935
Peak Amplitude: -1.62 dB -1.73 dB
Possibly Clipped: 0 0
DC Offset: -.004 -.004
Minimum RMS Power: -96.61 dB -96.59 dB
Maximum RMS Power: -8.62 dB -9.25 dB
Average RMS Power: -20.55 dB -20.68 dB
Total RMS Power: -19.52 dB -19.72 dB
Actual Bit Depth: 16 Bits 16 Bits

Using RMS Window of 50 ms

 

Here's the EAC log for my old Columbia CGK 30339:


EAC extraction logfile from 19. August 2007, 0:21 for CD
Soft Machine / Third

Used drive : BENQ DVD DC DW1670 Adapter: 1 ID: 0
Read mode : Secure with NO C2, accurate stream, NO disable cache
Combined read/write offset correction : 0
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No

Track 1
Filename C:\div\Soft Machine - Facelift (Third - 1970).wav

Peak level 82.9 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 9124F657
Copy OK

Track 2
Filename C:\div\Soft Machine - Slightly All the Time (Third - 1970).wav

Peak level 62.4 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC A2532B0C
Copy OK

Track 3
Filename C:\div\Soft Machine - Moon in June (Third - 1970).wav

Peak level 78.7 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 37FED6B1
Copy OK

Track 4
Filename C:\div\Soft Machine - Out-Bloody-Rageous (Third - 1970).wav

Peak level 84.2 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Test CRC 3A392F63
Copy OK

No errors occured


End of status report

 

BTW: No lack of noise on this one.