some wise words from Tom Petty

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Scott S., Jul 20, 2014.

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  1. videoman

    videoman Senior Member

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    Not even sure what this means, but there's a lot of Elvis product out there for you to listen to if that's what gets your rocks off....
     
  2. videoman

    videoman Senior Member

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    Lake Tahoe, NV
    Sorry, but I miss that point then.

    Is he worried that other avenues to success no longer exist? He's wrong.
     
  3. RoryStorm

    RoryStorm Forum Resident

    Sorry...Just being a fresh mouthed bugger....I'm a rock n roller from Elvis, to Buddy, to The Beatles, to the Beach Boys...and up to good rock n roll today...so when I hear folks talking about all these The Voice, American Idol, and America's Got Talent stuff...makes me just wanna put on Rubber Soul and smile.
     
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  4. videoman

    videoman Senior Member

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    That's cool. Plenty of stuff out there for everybody. Nobody has to like all of it and no one does.

    As I used to say often when I worked for Tower Records, "That's why the store is so damned big!"
     
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  5. nbakid2000

    nbakid2000 On Indie's Cutting Edge

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    No, but Dick Clark did allow "One Less Lonely Girl" in 2010.

     
  6. videoman

    videoman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lake Tahoe, NV
    Something else that needs to be considered:

    the paths to recognition and ultimate success for a musician or singer have changed quite a bit over the last couple of decades. In Petty's day, putting together a band and making a living playing covers while working on your originals and building up your fanbase to the point that someone at a big record label might take notice and then help further your career was S.O.P. That bar/club scene doesn't exist the way it used to. Today it's more about getting yourself seen on YouTube and distributing your music over the internet than playing gigs in dingy bars. Working on original material is more about working with your home studio than rehearsing in the garage.

    Some of that is due to shifts in culture, some due to shifts in economy, some due to shifts in technology. Some of it is causal, some is more about effect.

    I don't necessarily buy into the "gotta pay you dues" meme because we ALL pay our dues in one form or another. There's other ways to do that beyond just playing Rolling Stones covers at 1 in the morning for a bunch of drunk folks.
     
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  7. BEAThoven

    BEAThoven Forum Resident

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    I think Petty makes some valid points, but as usual, he puts puts the blame in the wrong court.

    So many folks like to take the stance that "good music" -- whatever the hell that may be -- is being "killed" or "controlled" or something like that... It's seems so easy just to blame, say, the records companies or, now, "American Idol"-type TV shows...

    I think a lot of folks just don't want to face this: Rock 'n' roll music isn't just the cultural force it once was. It had its day... Rock music just isn't defining generations anymore. Right or wrong, rock music at one time played a big part in the listener's identity. That's not the case anymore -- most of it is diversion. It serves as background.

    I'm a firm believer in the "the public gets what the public wants" -- if a large segment of the population felt shows like American Idol were pure scam, they would have rejected it long ago, not continually made it immensely popular.
     
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  8. kozy814

    kozy814 Forum Resident

    You make a lot of good points. There is a place in music for artists that don't write and produce, but it's not at the top of the list. History is very telling that the bands and singers that have an intellectual and corporate interest in their music tend to have staying power. Pat Benetar has had a nice career, but I'm not sure how well her recordings will be stand up over time, particularly the hits she did not have a hand in writing or producing. With Diana Ross/Supremes, they were part of a groundswell movement that included a pool of terrific and consistent songcrafters backed by a visionary production team/plan. I'd argue that her, without the rest of the Motown machine behind her would not have amounted to much.

    I think (just my opinion) that the games shows have everything to do with the songwriting/arranging/production for the songs that get selected for these shows/artists. Every decision is corporate. And every element of the content is owned by the corporate entity that is putting on that shindig. It's rather territorial in the sense that this market share is sacred and divided amoung a select few. The record industry is leaning hard on this model to remain fluid. I may be mistaken. but this appears to be in the realm of a last gasp effort to keep the music industry in a position to dictate trends and monopolize sales. The art appears to be priority 3 or 4.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2014
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  9. nbakid2000

    nbakid2000 On Indie's Cutting Edge

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  10. McCool

    McCool Forum Resident

    You could also argue this is why we've seen a decline in the most general terms in the quality of records that have been coming out in recent history. Subjective as hell but I think there is something to it. In Petty's day artists really had to hone their craft night after night playing clubs and getting tight as a live band. Then after mastering that aspect of their career, they had to learn that the recording studio was a completely different animal to what they were able to generate in a live performance. So there was a lot more trial and error involved which is something Petty has been very sympathetic towards modern performers about. He's mentioned it's unfortunate how little rope modern performers are given in terms of trial and error making mention that from his standpoint the number of artists who have had legitimate opportunities to have "that second hit record" are shrinking because the industry has become so quick to move onto the next thing once whatever they are currently putting their money behind begins to falter. He draws a comparison to his own career making the correct evaluation that The Heartbreakers were nurtured through their first two albums before finally cashing in with their third record.

    Tom would like you because you essentially just made his point that the modern record buying public celebrates mediocrity although again he places blame on the industry for this as well. He claims that the audience can only pick from what it's offered by the industry and if the industry doesn't offer them quality, then it won't be there for the audience to pick from.

    This goes a lot deeper with Petty though than just criticizing the types of artists that are coming out of game shows. He also takes issue with the the deregulation of radio, the fact that disc jockeys can no longer promote the artists and bands they want to on their programs and the fact that certain music has a very small window of opportunity to get out to the public at large. Disc jockey Jim Ladd elaborates in RDAD:

    Jim Ladd: The first thing people do in war is to take over the media. First thing. When big business came in and Ronald Reagan came in and took over, they deregulated the industry. That allowed Clear Channel and Infinity to buy up all these radio stations. We used to have a rule called the "seven and seven" rule. You could only own seven radio and seven TV stations maximum. That ensured mom and pop competition. Deregulation changed that. At last count Clear Channel had twelve hundred stations. That's a lot of control over information. For example, Clear Channel put out a list after 9/11 of songs that disc jockeys couldn't play, including John Lennon's "Imagine". They put out a list that said don't play these songs.

    Tom Petty: Radio had given me this wonderful life and rich tapestry of music over the years, and now it had become this other thing, programmed in relation to market research. I was seeing advertisements for stations that said, "No Talk"! No radio personality whatsoever, no one there to introduce you to something that might possibly mean the world to you, like music meant the world to me.
     
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  11. Hey Hey, Tom Petty's way off base here. As others have said, I don't see that the process used by the various Idol shows is a lot different than how prefab pop idols have always been put together. The main difference is the high level of transparency and the fact that the svengalis figured out how to make a buck off the fabrication process, too.
     
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  12. videoman

    videoman Senior Member

    Location:
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    Couple of points here:

    the shows and the subsequent success of the few who have had success are separate. The shows themselves are a big production put together in a manner to create the highest TV ratings. And those shows are what they are; take 'em or leave 'em.

    But once that's over, if the artists are going to be able to take that exposure gained from being on those shows and turn into an actual career in music, that's largely on them. Again, very few contestants from these shows go on to do much, and the ones that do are pretty damned good at what they do. Carrie Underwood has sold millions of records because she's a good singer and performer with good songs that people like, not because she won a TV singing contest a few years ago.

    Sure, they are going to have songs written for them and production done for them but again, that's nothing new. How well they stand up over time really isn't the point. Nobody can predict that. Pat Benatar has two huge hits ("Heartbreaker" and "Hit Me With Your Best Shot") she had little to do with that 30 years later, have certainly stood up. Most artists would be thrilled to have that. And there have been plenty of "stand up over time" singers who did little more than just sing what they were told to sing. Cline, Warwick, Ronstadt, Benatar, Whitney....I could go on and on. Whether Clarkson, Underwood, et al end up among those names a couple of decades hence remains to be seen. But not much reason to think they wouldn't.

    And again, it's really not about some sort of competition between those who write their own material and those who are just singers and part of a larger effort to create the hits. Because that has ALWAYS existed. There's plenty of room for both. If the do-it-yourself types have a better track record of creating "stand up over time" material, that's great. But that somehow means the other stuff shouldn't exist or isn't worthwhile? That just doesn't make sense to me.

    If Petty's worried that the do-it-yourself types are getting short shrift these days, then they need to be worried about their own game. Not whining that some other sector of the music business is encroaching upon them. That's like complaining that pick-up sales are down because people are buying too many sedans. Don't bitch about the sedans; make better pick-ups that people want to buy.
     
  13. BEAThoven

    BEAThoven Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey
    McCool said: Tom would like you because you essentially just made his point that the modern record buying public celebrates mediocrity although again he places blame on the industry for this as well. He claims that the audience can only pick from what it's offered by the industry and if the industry doesn't offer them quality, then it won't be there for the audience to pick from.

    This goes a lot deeper with Petty though than just criticizing the types of artists that are coming out of game shows. He also takes issue with the the deregulation of radio, the fact that disc jockeys can no longer promote the artists and bands they want to on their programs and the fact that certain music has a very small window of opportunity to get out to the public at large.


    See, this is part where Petty and I diverge. I feel, in 2014, the listener has has so many outlets to discover new music. I think his argument holds ups better in 1974 or even 1984 when the record buyer had so few options -- accessibility was so limited at that time that a consumer had to rely so heavily on "the industry" to introduce them to new and exciting music. A consumer was, indeed, reined in by radio, record stores, and what the record industry wanted to distribute.

    In 2014, consumers' outlets are limitless -- they don't have to wait for the industry to offer them anything. A consumer has never had such direct access to artists as they do today. In addition, it's so much easier for an artist to work around "the industry" these days.

    That said, even with all this limitless access to new and old music, you can't make a consumer actually value it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2014
  14. OnTheRoad

    OnTheRoad Not of this world

    Luckily Tom never had to audition for this panel of experts. :sigh:

     
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  15. videoman

    videoman Senior Member

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    I agree with Petty that it's unfortunate that artists aren't given more time to grow before the labels dump them. But as far as honing their craft goes, I just don't see it. Sure, some of the specifics have changed over time --- the way Petty did it wasn't the way it was done 40 years earlier either in many ways ---, but as I've pointed out with a few examples, most of these artists ARE honing their craft and paying their dues. If he's not paying attention to these shows enough to know this because he'd rather just dismiss them out of hand, then that's his failure.

    You don't have success in this business without working for it. Whether that involves putting in years before your big break, or being talented and skilled enough to be able to step up to the plate if you're lucky enough to get your big break earlier than some others might. And these shows prove that. There have been some very talented and skilled 15 year old singers on these shows. They have 'em every season because they make for great TV. So far, I don't know if any of them have been able to move further than that though. (Hello, Jessica Sanchez?) Why? Because it takes more than just being young and cute and having a good singing voice.

    Petty doesn't seem to understand this. Probably because he doesn't want to. Easier to just pick an easy target and dismiss it out of hand. Fine, but being wrong is still wrong. Even IF there is some tangetically good point to make.


    1) again, he picks the wrong target. These game shows promise nothing beyond finding a great singer. They aren't promising the next Beatles, they are promising the next Brenda Lee. On that they deliver.

    2) his complaint is as old as the industry itself. This is where he just sounds like an old man.

    This goes a lot deeper with Petty though than just criticizing the types of artists that are coming out of game shows. He also takes issue with the the deregulation of radio, the fact that disc jockeys can no longer promote the artists and bands they want to on their programs and the fact that certain music has a very small window of opportunity to get out to the public at large. Disc jockey Jim Ladd elaborates in RDAD:

    That's all true, but the larger point here is radio is finished as a means for introducing new artists. It has nothing to do with formats and programming, but peoples tastes for how they get their entertainment. Technological changes.
     
  16. nbakid2000

    nbakid2000 On Indie's Cutting Edge

    Location:
    Springfield, MO
    Sure, if the casual music listener won't do the research, then they won't hear it. But as a casual listener, I don't think they care, otherwise they wouldn't be casual listeners in the first place.
     
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  17. OnTheRoad

    OnTheRoad Not of this world

    The wholesale trend away from the RnR lifestyle that once was to this American Idol type of mass interest makes me want to puke ! Such a sad state nowadays in this cultural vacuum.
     
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  18. Seederman

    Seederman Forum Resident

    Is this supposed to be another ad hominem bon mot because I don't think Petty's words were so "wise"? Sorry, dude, wrong generation. He's dissed mine as well.
     
  19. Scott S.

    Scott S. lead singer for the best indie band on earth Thread Starter

    Location:
    Walmartville PA
    Seems like you dissed your own.
     
  20. videoman

    videoman Senior Member

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    Lake Tahoe, NV
    I wonder----do similar complaints exist among successful restauranteurs about TV cooking competition shows?
     
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  21. cwd

    cwd Forum Resident

    Location:
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    Maybe that is at least part of the point...because the masses with a little disposable income are "TOLD" by the boobtube and all the social media stuff that Beiber is awesome and wonderful and talented ad such? And, maybe, this constant pumping of crap-data actually convinced you in good faith to believe that someone told you he was the best or one of the best songwriters around today? That's why I hate this crap. My family, who won't listen to a cd, much less and vinyl lp, through from beginning to end WILL religiously gather around whatever show with whatever "celebrity judge" and breathlessly watch the scripted, canned, force-fed stuff...and some of the singers can sing, but sheesh.
     
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  22. cwd

    cwd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Clarksville, TN
    Hey, I JUST saw on MSN a lead story that, since Justin Bieber says he is not with Selena Gomez, we should suggest new beaus for her!
     
  23. Larry Mc

    Larry Mc Forum Dude

    He's not listening to you Steve. He's calling people names and now, just like dogs fighting, he's attracting like minded individuals.
     
  24. kozy814

    kozy814 Forum Resident

    It's all good. Some people like the artists spawn from network TV. I personally see a wide margin in quality when compared to the DIY (as you say) artists, Carrie Underwood included.

    Pat Benetar while very good in her day is hardly a legend. She's one big hit better than nearly all the forgotten 80's acts on the hipster circuit. My line in the sand resides with those artists that defined pop music. You mentian Dionne Warwick -- she had quite a partnership going with Burt Bacarach. While not a songwriter herself she was a huge part of his sound. Tough to link her with the likes of Kelly Clarkston.
     
  25. videoman

    videoman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lake Tahoe, NV
    So if a singer hitches their wagon to one particular writer or music-machine like Motown then that gives them more cred than one who uses songs from a variety of sources?

    I can link Warwick with Clarkson in a number of ways. Both work the top songwriters and producers of their day. Both have a lot of hit singles to their credit. One way I can't really link them is that Clarkson is technically a much better singer, although both are great at delivering pop songs to their intended audiences in manners that are very hip for their time and both help define what that hip sound is.

    You like DIY types (for lack of a better phrase) than singer-for-hire types. Fine. That's your choice. But the two paradigms have ALWAYS existed. They aren't in competition with each other, are they?

    "Defined pop music"? I'm not even sure what that means beyond defines pop music that YOU personally like.

    Here's the thing: pop music exists and always will because, by definition it's what's POPULAR at any given moment. That, for a while there, guys like Petty were also what was popular is nice but it doesn't say anything good or bad about pop music then or now one way or the other. 5 guys playing guitars and drums and writing their own songs aren't as popular right now as they used to be. OK. But how is that American Idol's fault? Or Kelly Clarkson's?

    Petty wants kids to be more interested in different types of music...fine. Then it's incumbent upon those different types of music to be more interesting to kids. Not whine about the stuff that they like because it doesn't meet his personal definition of "quality".
     
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