Sony SACD/DVD multichannel question - NS500 and similar models

Well, I've scanned newsgroups and websites for some specifics on multichannel SACD/DVD players, particularly how they interconnect with other hifi components - but I should have come here first, no doubt.....

My good old Sony CD player just died, so the obvious step for me now is to go for a SACD player. As I don't have a DVD player either, I have been considering a couple of the combined SACD/DVD players from Sony (I noted the comments on the 500 below). Here in Australia, I can get the DVPNS700V, or the newer DVPNS905V - the latter has a higher frequency video decoder chip, but is pretty similar to the former.

I am not that interested in multichannel for music or DVD, and I don't have the amps/speakers for it. For now, just want good old stereo from SACD. I read somewhere (might have been eopinions) that the 500 model requires use of the 5.1 multichannel connectors in order to get SACD output - I don't know if this is true, as I would have thought that the 2 sets of stereo analog outs would have done the trick - but then there's the DVD output to consider... So if it IS the case that you have to use the 5.1 outs for SACD sound, what do you do if you don't have a multichannel amp? I have a niceold stero Musical Fidelity amp, and it seems bizarre that I couldn't hook up one of these combo SACD/DVD players to it. I can't imagine that adapter cables going from 5.1 to stereo would exist. I am assuming that the NS700 and NS905 models would connect in the same way as the 500 - I believe they each have the 2 sets of stereo analog outs, and the 5.1 multi outs.

The other thing I've been wondering is if I can hook one of these machines up to my hifi for SACD stereo music, and to the television for DVD video (composite only), without having to swap cables around each time - I am assuming that the two sets of stereo analog outs aloow the two functions to be kept separate, in the absence of putting everything through a fancy audio-visual receiver things that connects to everything.

The obvious thing of course is to try one in the configuration I want before buying. Unfortunately, I've found that local hifi folks selling these machines don't really know what they are selling. One shop had a couple of SACD machines, including the NS700, but the guy tried to tell me that SACD was going nowhere, and that pepole usually went for upmarket high quality CD players. He seemed very surprised when I told him that I had a few hybrid SACDs, and that I had gone to the trouble of ordering them specially.

So I'm sure you folks here will be able to help me. If it turns out that the combined SACD/DVD machines won't fit in with my system, I am happy to go for a separate SACD machine (the SCDXE-670) and DVD machine.

However, the new NS905 SACD/DVD is tempting, as it apparently has superb picture quality, even for a non-progressive scan model.

One thing that I read in a review as a potential issue with the 905, and I don't know if it applies to the NS500 and NS700, is the fact that you can't select between the CD and SACD layers on hybrid discs - the machine just defaults to the SACD layer - can anyone refute this claim, or verify it?

Also, apparantly the 905 requires use of a video display in order to switch from the stereo to the multichannel mixes on Multichannel SACDs - is this true for these models?

Thanks, in anticipation of your help.

 

I can only speak to the NS500V in what follows.

SACD outputs only in analog, thus only from the stereo and 5.1 analog line outs.

You can get two-channel SACD output simply by hooking the stereo line outs to your amplifier. No 5.1 needed for stereo.

I know you can switch from multichannel to 2-channel by stopping the disc and pressing the appropriate key on the remote. TV doesn't have to be on. I don't have any hybrid discs so I can't say on that count, though there is a button on the remote that seems to switch from the SACD layer to the CD layer.

I'm hoping SACD goes the distance. It solves all sorts of problems for all sorts of people, from those who want copy protection to those who want hi-res flat transfers to those who want CDs to play in the car. Happily, the NS500V does a great job with Redbook CDs and with DVDs, so it's worth it simply as a replacement player.

Good luck!

Gardo

 

Thanks Gardo - that makes sense to me. What confused me was this statement from a reviewer on the epinions site;
"The SACD playback is only possible through the player’s 5.1 analog audio out, which allows you connect it to your “Dolby Digital Ready” or “DTS Ready” amplifier with 5.1 inputs. You can also use the DD/DTS decoder in the player for Dolby Digital or DTS playback (through the 5.1 out)".

That just doesn't make sense to me, but part of me wondered if this player was designed specifically to be used with a multichannel amp or something. Thanks for clarifying that point for me. The full review, BTW, is at: http://www.epinions.com/content_66496204420

What about hooking the machine up to your TV as well, for the DVD-video playback? I'll only be using composite video - my TV has L/R audio in and video in. Can you have the player hooked up to your hifi system for 2 channel SACD playback, and also simultaneously have 2 channel audio from DVD-video hooked up to the TV, using the other set of analog audio outs on the player? If so, do you have to switch audio-out "channels" on the player when switching between SACD playback and DVD-video playback (eg. via the remote) - or does it know where to send the audio from the different sources?

BTW, if you want to read the initial review that I came across on the SOny DVPNS905, here's the link to the Australian site where I found it:
http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/HardwareReviews/Sony905/Sony905.html

You'll note that the review focuses more on the video aspects of the machine than the SACD audio. It also highlights the issue of not being able to get the player to play the redbook CD layer on hybrid SACDs, and a couple of other minor annoyances. However, it was a pre-release review machine, so maybe those problems have been resolved, or maybe the reviewer couldn't work out all the functions without the manual. In any case, this looks like a splendid machine.

 

Again, these remarks apply only to the NS500V. I don't know anything about the other model you're citing.

There are two line-level analog outs on the NS500V. I believe they are both "on" all the time. You can certainly use one set for SACD/stereo playback and the other set for DVD playback into the TV. I might suggest using your stereo for your TV sound too, however, if it's convenient. Most hifi systems have much better sound than TV speakers can provide.

I can see where the review you cite would be misleading. I hope I've helped clear a few things up.

Cheers,
Gardo

 

Thanks again Gardo.

Since I posted this question, I went into a hifi shop today that carries stock of the NS700 model (this I think is very similar to the NS 500, but the 500 has not been available in Australia, as far as I know). I asked them to give me a demo of the machine when hooked up for simple 2-channel audio, and for DVD-video.

Interestingly, the guy hooked up the L/R stereo leads to the amp from the first two (ie. front speaker) outputs of the 5.1 multichannel outs on the 700 - he then went to the settings menu and specified 2 channel SACD rather than multi. I asked him why he didn't just hook up the stereo leads to one set of the analog stereo outs - he claimed that the front speaker multi-outs allow for higher bandwidth output compared to the stereo analog outs, or something (although I would have thought there'd be no difference with any of the analog outs).

Can anyone verify what this guy was saying? I'm still somewhat confused as to what he was doing.

From a sonic point of view, it sounded great. I got him to change the on-screen menu to multi-channel, and the sound seemed to change, presumably because SACD was coming out via only the front channels of the multi-channel mix.

He also reckoned that stereo SACD was some sort of fold-down from the multi-channel mix, but I didn't think that was the case.

 

Well, that's interesting. I have read elsewhere on this forum--a single post, if I recall--that someone somewhere said the SACD 5.1 analog outs were "buffered" in a way that the ordinary L/R analog outs were not, and that the sound is better as a result. I haven't tested my own rig to find out if this is true. I have my doubts, but it never hurts to try. I'd want to be sure that ordinary stereo is the result--i.e., that the L/R from the 5.1 in 2-channel mode is the same signal as the L/R from the L/R outs.

It's a relief to say that I DO know the answer to the second question. The 2-channel mix on an SACD is a real 2-channel mix. There is no "folddown" or "mixdown" occurring. One of the beauties of the SACD is that there's room for a hi-res stereo mix as well as a hi-rez multichannel mix on the same disc. I can switch from one to the other via the remote.

Sony's SACD site will help you with the details of the format. I don't have the URL to hand, but you can find it in the other NS500V thread here.

Cheers,
Gardo

 

I wonder if the manual says anything about the differences between the connections... somehow I doubt it.

Another query - does the NS500V (and similar models) allow you to switch between the CD layer and SACD layer on hybrid discs?

The review of the NS905V that I read claimed that it could not be done - but then they may not have known the full story. Cheers.

 

Yes; but like other players, not on the fly.

Richard.

 

Thanks, Richard. I have no hybrid discs (yet--that's going to change next Tuesday ) so I couldn't speak to this. I can say, after looking at all the nice little buttons on the remote again, that there's one button for switching from multichannel to 2-channel, and another for switching from SACD to CD.

I should also note that I'm rapidly becoming an SACD addict. And the video off this machine is also quite fine, which means that I've also just gotten a whole "new" DVD collection. Pretty nice for 150.00.

Gardo

 

Thanks Richard and all. Can you explain how you do the switch from CD to SACD layers on this machine? I know you have to restart play to reread the TOC, but as far as i know there isn't a button for this function, is there?

 

There is a button on the remote to switch between stereo and multi-channel SACD tracks and another button to switch between the SACD and Red Book layer. But each switch requires that you stop playing the unit. This function is a bit crude. At least this unit does not take forever to start playing the multi-channel tracks. Some units seem to take forever, over 35 sec in the case of the APEX unit I had at one time.

Richard.

 

Maybe I'm just dense, but I'm confused on the issue of SACD playback. I just got a Philips DVD/SACD player, and I have to use analog connections to hear anything from the SACD layer - it won't provide any sound through the digital connection. Is that just the way it is? Do I need to connect the 5.1 cables, even for 2-channel mixes like the Stones SACDs? Tech support's no help. The manual states/strongly implies that it should work through the digital connection, but I can't figure out how to make that happen. Help!

 

Copy protection of the DSD stream mandates that an SACD disk not output any digital information through a digital audio output! Marantz has a unique digital interconnect for SACD digital audio into its own receiver's DSD to analogue section, and the industry has just agreed upon a new digital interconnect for both video and digital high rez audio but the SACD Team has not yet signed off on the interconnect standard over copy protection concerns. Confused yet?

Richard.

 

I'm always confused! Okay, so my digital output's useless for SACDs. From what I've read, apparently the sound'll be better if I use the 5.1 analog connections instead of 2-channel analog connections, even for 2-channel releases like the Stones discs. Does that sound right? I just want to maximize the quality of this thing...

 

My understanding is that there is no digital output at all for SACD music on any player (due to copy protection issues maybe?). However, a digital out for redbook CD signals is often provided.

From my earlier queries, adn the helpful answers provided, I believe the following situation pertains to stereo SACD playback on a multichannel player:

- depending on the particular combo DVD/SACD multichannel player, you may have one or more 2-channel analog outputs in addition to the 5.1 analog multichannel outputs. The 2-channel analog outs can be used for DVD-video sound, or stereo hifi music (ie. CD and SACD), depending on your setup.

- you can also use the front speaker outputs of the 5.1 multichannel analog outputs to get proper stereo sound from your SACDs - BUT you must make sure that the machine is configured to deliver 2-channel SACD sound only, not multi. Otherwise, as Ken indicates above, you will be playing the multichannel mix on the SACD and missing out on a few channels. NOTE: I have seen this done in a store with a Sony NS700V; the sales guy connected it up for 2-channel using the front channels of the 5.1 outputs, and specified stereo SACD sound. He maintained this was superior to using the ordinary stereo analog outputs, for "bandwidth" reasons. I'm not sure why.

- if you want multichannel SACD or DVD, you will need to run the full set of 5.1 cables to a multi-channel compatible receiver and thence to the speakers. I imagine it might be possible to run the 5.1 cables direct to a TV, but then if the player also does SACD, you won't be able to use the multi connects to your amplifier.

I'm off to pick up my new Sony NS905V SACD/DVD player!

 

Well, I just picked up my new NS905V - a lovely little player. I've hooked it up already and spun a few discs. First impression of CD playback is quite favourable compared to my 10-year old Sony CD player. SuperAudio CD sounds pretty gorgeous so far, but I've only listened to a few minutes of the "Tubular Bells" SACD (on my lunch hour).

DVD-video picture is superb - I'm only using composite video, but it's pretty nice.

I've hooked up the player to my stereo amp via the 5.1 outputs, with 2 channel specified - the DVD audio and video is connected via one of the two sets of L/R/Composite outputs. Imagine my surprise when, on playing music via CD, the sound was not only coming out of my stereo system (via the amp), but also through the TV. It was easy enough to turn the TV off, but I would like to find out how (and if) I can switch between different outputs for music playback. The onscreen menu system is pretty extensive, and I haven't got my head around it all yet.

Still, I am very happy - I've joined the DVD and SACD camps in one fell swoop.