SONY SCD-1/SCD-777ES question.

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Mal, Jan 17, 2002.

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  1. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist Thread Starter

    I posted this at DCC but it would seem that most of us have now migrated here......


    I would appreciate the views of anyone on the forum who has heard/owns either of these players (Steve - you've got the SCD-777ES, right?). I've read most of the reviews etc on the net but I reckon I can trust the views of the members of this forum above all others :D.

    I am considering moving up to a better CD source. I'm interested in the SCD-1 and have a few questions:

    1) Is the SCD-1 any better than the SCD-777ES? (I probably won't be using the balanced outputs in the near future...)

    2) In CD playback - how does the SCD-1 compare to the competition in its price range (say $3000 - $5000)?

    3) Does the new multichannel SCD-XA777ES compare at all to the SCD-1 or the SCD-777ES?

    4) In SACD playback is there any competition in its price range?

    5) How does the Marantz SA-1 compare?


    Thanks to Fredric, jkerr abd Bradley for their responses to this post over at the DCC forum (RIP?:confused: )
     
  2. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    I have the SCD-777, yes. I like it. I mean, as a Redbook player, it is very accurate, which is what I need in my work. Does the SCD-1 sound any better. Maybe a slight tad, but it's not worth all of that extra money. I like its looks though. I think the 777 is fine. I have no desire to move up, even though Sony would probably oblige me.

    I have not heard the Multi unit, except at the CES, and who can tell anything there? Are you into multi-channel? If so, wait for the second generation of players to come out. Not enough discs out there right now.

    I've not heard the Marantz SA-1.

    I think that, unless one has money to burn, $5000 for CD playback is way too much money spent. There are better players for a lot cheaper (SCD-777). Just my opinion!
     
  3. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist Thread Starter

    I'm not interested in multichannel at the moment.
    I really hope that the record companies don't forget about the original mono/2-channel mixes of classic material. I can imagine re-issues of the future comprising a poorly mastered original mix, accompanied by a new multichannel mix - ie with all the effort being put into the new mix :(.

    Worse still, I can see a time when the original mixes will be left off all together - am I right in thinking that the Blonde on Blonde SACD only has the re-mix on it :rolleyes:?

    As far as the SCD-1 goes - I figured that it's main advantage at it's price range is that, along with good redbook playback, its also a great SACD player - is it fair to expect that the next generation of (cheaper) SACD players will not better the performance of the SCD-1/777ES?
     
  4. jkerr

    jkerr Senior Member

    Location:
    Suffolk, VA
    You should do some searches at audioasylum because your questions were discussed quite a bit.

    www.audioasylum.com

    Search in the SACD/DVD-A forum and you'll find many comparisons with SCD-1 and 777ES and with the current players.

    For me, the differences that were described between the 2 didn't justify the price difference. Besides I couldn't afford the SCD-1! Problem is now that since the 777ES is discontinued you'd have to get one used. Unless you're very lucky in finding a dealer that has one left over.
     
  5. feinstein

    feinstein Member

    Location:
    Detroit, MI
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Moved this reply over from the DCC Forum:

    Originally posted by Malc S:
    I am considering moving up to a better CD source. I'm interested in the SCD-1 and have a few questions:

    1) Is it any better than the SCD-777ES? (I won't be using the balanced outputs in the near future...)

    I have had both since the day they came onto the market in the U.S. I kept the SCD-1. In A/B testing on both CD's and SACD's after 200 hour burn-in, they are identical (when not using the balanced outputs). I would stick with the SCD-777 since it can be had at bargain prices these days (in the U.S. at least).


    2) In CD playback - how does it compare to the competition in its price range (say $3000 - $5000)?

    The most important thing that I can say about the SCD-1/777 is that they are very REVEALING decks in terms of CD playback (SACD is harder to compare with other decks since there are few of them out there). In other words, when playing back poorly mastered CD's, you'll REALLY hear it, on great CD's, you'll be amazed. You've got to take off the "cut-off" plate in order to fully realize the revelations about your CD collection that this deck witll give you. The ergonomics of these decks is fairly poor (it takes 45 seconds to start playing a disc! The slowness of the sliding door gets annoying after a while). But the sound is glorious on really good material.


    3) Does the new multichannel SCD-XA777ES compare at all to the SCD-1 or the SCD-777ES?

    I can't comment on this since I only have a stereo system and haven't heard the newer decks.

    4) In SACD playback is there any competition in its price range?

    Don't know. Haven't heard any other SACD decks.

    5) How does the Marantz SA-1 compare?

    Never heard it.
     
  6. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Not everyone shares this opinion (described above). For the best overall view, do a search both on the high rez board of audio asylum and the digital drive (it was widely discussed before the High Rez Highway was a separate forum). I have compared the SCD-1 and SA-1 (Marantz) in my system sync'ing up the Tubular Bells disc and switching. We found no difference in SACD sound, consistent with what was reported in Ultimate Audio magazine.

    In the recent Absolute Sound, the article on the new 777 reports that the SCD-1 is a bit better, but gives high marks to the 777.

    As for the old 777, I preferred the SCD-1 on both CD and SACD enough to justify the purchase for me. As for whether the difference would justify it to others, not my place to say.
     
  7. feinstein

    feinstein Member

    Location:
    Detroit, MI
    Greg wrote:
    Not everyone shares this opinion (described above).

    I ask:

    What opinion are you referring to? The one that the SCD-1/777 are very revealing CD players or the fact that the SCD-1 and 777 are indistinguishable from each other?
     
  8. pigmode

    pigmode Active Member

    Location:
    HNL
    Has anyone compared the 333 to the 777? I understand they are very close as well. I was wondering because I spent about a whole day A/Bing the 333 and my Njoe Tjoeb 4000.
     
  9. Holy Zoo

    Holy Zoo Gort (Retired) :-)

    Location:
    Santa Cruz
    Well, I don't know that it's a scientifically determined fact that these two sound identical. So far it's just opinion, on everyone's part.

    Also, remember - everyone's hearing is different, some better than others. Heck, I'm having a hard time hearing any difference between vinyl and CDR's made from it. However, I hold no illusions that that probably lots of you would hear the difference immediately. The point being, what you might determine to be "indistinguishable" may not hold true for someone else.

    Now... if someone's done a double-blind A/B test with a dozen people participating, and none could tell the difference, then we might head towards the "fact" column.
     
  10. sgb

    sgb Senior Member

    Location:
    Baton Rouge
    Yes. I have a 333, a friend has the 777. We've compared the two players in both his system and mine.

    His system consists of an Audible Illusions MODULUS 3A (latest version), the huge BAT transistor amp (don't know model #), Von Schweikert VR-4 speakers and subwoofer, Harmonic Technology interconnects and speaker cables.

    My system consists of a Rogue Audio 66 Magnum preamp (with Mullard CV-4003 tubes replacing the standard Sylvania 12AU7's), Quicksilver MS-190 tube amp, Rosinante Evolution Signature speakers and two Velodyne ULD-12 subwoofers (stereo pair). I don't use exotic interconnects or speaker cables. I have Fulton Musical Industries Interconnects between all components, and AQ Type 8 running to the speakers.

    On both systems, the main amp and speakers are driven full range directly from one of the preamp's two outputs, and the subwoofer(s) are driven independently using the preamp's other set of outputs. This enables us to hear the speaker unfettered by any distortion introduced by the crossovers that control the subwoofers.

    On his system the 777 and 333 are almost indistinguishable. Perhaps (but just perhaps) the 777 has a slightly more foward midrange. On my system, the 777 reveals slightly more air on top, but suffers from a dryer mid-bass to bottom end. Hope this helps.
     
  11. pigmode

    pigmode Active Member

    Location:
    HNL
    Right on sgb, that was really helpful for me to try to figure out where my AH Njoe Tjoeb 4000 stands in the scheme of things.

    Basically, compared to the Sony 333, it has a more prominent and lush midrange, and is slightly more forward in the upper frequencies. It also has a wider and deeper soundstage. Not the audiophile ideal, I know, but it doesn't sound bad at all. It's a hacked player after all, and people have quit their careers to hack the Sony players as well. ;)
     
  12. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Originally posted by feinstein
    >> Greg wrote: Not everyone shares this opinion (described above).
    I ask: What opinion are you referring to? The one that the SCD-1/777 are very revealing CD players or the fact that the SCD-1 and 777 are indistinguishable from each other? <<

    It is not a fact that the SCD-1 and 777 are indistinguishable--and that's the opinion I'm referring to. I hear a difference and many others do as well. I hear an even greater difference between the 333 and the 777.

    Someone reading this thread could easily get the idea that the 333 is basically indistinguishable from the 777 which is basically indistinguishable from the SCD-1. . .thus the flagship sounds indistinguishable from the 333. This is simply nuts, based on what I've heard with my own two ears. While the differences in each case are subtle, depending on your priorities in listening, they are plainly audible IMHO.
     
  13. sgb

    sgb Senior Member

    Location:
    Baton Rouge
    And they wouldn't be coming to an erroneous conclusion, Greg. I'll submit to you and others that, depending on the source material, one may find one player preferable to another - be it the SCD-1 vs the 777, or the 333 vs either one of these. In fact, on another audiophile friend's >$400K system using Grand Slamms, Krell Amps & Levinson's top of the line controller/preamp, three listeners repeatedly preferred the sound of the 333 to the host's SCD-1, noting that it was more musical. And this in spite of the fact that all noticed the SCD1's supposed higher definition.

    I'm not a proponent of ABX per se, but many audiophiles choose to listen to components that may not provide the the most accurate sound because they might be a bit more musical to their ears.

    On another note, can anyone provide a comparison of the similarly priced Marantz SA-14 with either the SCD-1, 777 or 333? TIA
     
  14. GregM

    GregM The expanding man

    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    OK, that certainly is opposite most listeners' impressions, and you are on record saying you do not find CD versions of Time Out and Kind of Blue any improvement over the SACDs, so I am at this point not surprised by (or in agreement with) much of anything you say.

    Are you really trying to tell us that the owner of a $400k system uses $6 hundred disc machine because he found it more musical than the SCD-1? Difficult to believe!
     
  15. sgb

    sgb Senior Member

    Location:
    Baton Rouge
    Well, now I'm confused on a couple of things, Greg: Are you saying that I said the CD versions of Time Out and KOB aren't any better than the SACDs? Show me where I said that...

    If you read my post again regarding the SCD-1/333 comparison, I noted that MY 333 was prefered to HIS SCD-1 in HIS system (sorry I did not make that more clear). He has since sold his SCD-1, but, no, he didn't buy a 333: he bought an SA-1.
     
  16. Chris Garrett

    Chris Garrett New Member

    Location:
    Miami, Florida
    Can you believe this............?

    2 minutes to go in the UM/Georgetown game, w/the score tied and ESPN goes out to lunch. Geeze....

    Now, back to the question at hand........

    Rumors are that the SCD-1 has potted transformers, the 777 does not. The SCD-1 has tighter tolerances for its electrical parts and the 777 does not. The SCD-1's board is hand soldered whereas the 777's is not. The SCD-1 has an opamp derived balanced output (not truly differentially balanced) and the 777 does not.

    This being said, true or not, there is probably little difference between the two, for (wow, they just rewound the game back to 3:10!) most people's hearing. I've logged a lot of hours in front of my buddy's 777 and he had my SCD-1 when it was new and when it was fully broken in and with his adept hearing, he said they were quite similar.

    I bought the SCD-1 because I liked the looks and at $3020 delivered NIB, it was worth the added expense. I put a premium on aesthetics and there is that 'supposed' difference for the better.

    Prior to that, I ran an Electrocompaniet EMC-1 unit from Norway and loved that player. Totally different presentation, but both are worthy. I haven't heard any other SACD players.

    I did buy a Dodson 217 mkII D v.1 DAC to run with the Sony, right after I bought it and this DAC brought the midrange out a step and tamed the treble somewhat. Many find the Sony's a bit analytical in presentation with a somewhat detailed treble (read: brighter than some, surely the EMC-1) I moved the Dodson to a second system and really don't mind the Sony on redbook. I'd like the midrange to come forward a bit, but I'd like to be able to slam dunk a basketball too. Such is life.

    There is always the Ric Shultz/Richard Kern mods to both players and I'll be doing this at sometime down the road. One gets a bit more forwardness in the mids and the treble is smoothed over a bit. Right now, I'm a happy camper.

    Go to AA's Hi Rez and read up on the SA-1 as rheems of info has been posted and archived.

    Good luck, Chris
     
  17. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist Thread Starter

    Chris,

    I went for the SCD-1 in the end as well - based mostly on my preference of the looks!

    The other reason was that when there is any difference cited between the the SCD-1 and the 777ES then the SCD-1 always comes out ahead! Also there are the potted transformers, balanced (sort of ;) ) outs, 5 feet etc...

    One snag: the transformer in my SCD-1 emits an audible hum. If you are in a quiet room you can hear it up to at least a foot away!

    I'm getting a replacement but I was just curious whether yours does this.

    I've read various reports on audioasylum of other cases of this....
     
  18. sgb

    sgb Senior Member

    Location:
    Baton Rouge
    Since this discussion is resurrected after a six week hiatus, I thought I'd mention that I ordered a Marantz SA-14, the company's only extant STEREO ONLY SACD player in February. I've run it in continuous play mode in order to break it in.

    It shares many of the features of the discontinued SA-1 and Sony's current SCD-1, but sells on the street for about $1200 less than the lowest price I've seen for a new SCD-1. The unit has impeccable build quality, smooth, seamless operation, and loads the TOC faster than any other player I've seen - about six seconds for the typical SACD.

    Sound quality is about on a par with friends' SA-1 and 777ES. In an email I sent to friends, I wrote, "Sonic differences compared to my 333 aren't as substantial as most owners of the 14 would like you to believe (although there ARE differences), but then, the difference between the 333 and Wayne's 777 isn't earth-shaking either. I would say though that in comparing the two, bass is a little tighter and fuller than the 333, and the top end is a little more refined. For now (until the 14 completely breaks in), I'll have to give the edge in depth and width to the 333. I haven't found the correct words for this yet, but somehow the 14 tends to be a little more revealing/truthful."

    Since this was writtten, I'd have to add that my cheaper 333 continues to create a deeper wider sound stage, but that 14 is certainly more authoritative.
     
  19. Chris Garrett

    Chris Garrett New Member

    Location:
    Miami, Florida
    SCD-1 trany hum.......

    Malc,

    I run an original PP300 with my sources and I prefer the 90Hz sine wave (my unit is multiwaveless) and I've heard the tranny buzz slightly on my SCD-1. When I go back to 60Hz, I hear nothing. It's an issue and buzzing isn't something we want any tranny to do, but I don't fret too much. I can hear it maybe 8-12" away, so it's not an audible thing from the listening position.

    Yes, I forgot that good ol' fifth foot. Under my SF Phono 1 SE and Sony, I use Final Lab Daruma 3 IIs, which are like MIB AURIOS, so I could care less about the feet. On most of my gear, I remove them anyway.

    I love my Sony is all I can say. At one point, I considered selling the SCD-1 and Dodson and buying the Marantz SA-1, cause it's supposedly a bit warmer on the CDs, but heck, you only live once. The Marantz units have had their share of bugs.

    For reference, my Sony was made in May of 2000 and knock on wood, I've had no issues. They have been dropping like flies, but those are mostly the '99 units for the most part. The first 3 SACD players have all had bugs.

    Take care, Chris
     
  20. KeithH

    KeithH Success With Honor...then and now

    Location:
    Beaver Stadium
    I've had the SCD-777ES since October 2000 and absolutely love it. Definitely the smartest purchase I've made in audio. It is a fabulous component. I have listened to the SCD-1 and SCD-XA777ES, but not side-by-side and not along side my '777ES, so I can't really draw conclusions as to their relative strengths and weaknesses. All I know is that the '777ES was a steal for the $1500 I paid.

    Steve, I absolutely agree with you in regards to spending $5000 on a redbook-only player.

    Feinstein, you are right on about the '777ES as a CD player. Some people criticize its literal presentation of redbook CDs with descriptors like thin, bright, sterile, analytical, etc., etc. I feel it is a wonderful player. By contrast, players that some people have claimed to be better than the '777ES I have found color the sound. Some people go overboard in pursuing a warm sound, not that I feel the '777ES is bright.
     
  21. sgb

    sgb Senior Member

    Location:
    Baton Rouge
    Pride of ownership notwithstanding, the original 777ES probably represents the best value, overall, in either the Sony or Marantz line. In my estimation, some corners had to be cut in order to bring the new XA777 out at a comparable price point to the original. That's why I opted for the SA-14 over the newer 777. I suspect that the 14 might be a little less polite than the original 777 (not a good thing, IMO), as Steve Hoffman's remaster of Blue is brighter than I remembered hearing it on the Rotel. (Not one of his best efforts, I'd have to say.)
     
  22. RicP

    RicP All Digital. All The Time.

    I'd have to disagree with this. I've listened to both quite extensively and I own an XA777ES.

    The triple parallel DAC configuration for stereo on the XA777ES really kicks it up past the 777 in terms of Redbook reproduction. When you hook the unit up through the stereo outputs and set it to <2CH>, the sound is just fabulous. In addition, the XA777ES loads a disc's TOC in a third of the time it takes the 777.

    The 777 is an amazing unit and I was very hard pressed to tell them apart on SACD, although again I'd give a slight nod to the XA777ES because of the parallel DACs -- obviously you can't compare multi-channel which the 777 does not support.

    The XA777ES uses the Next Generation of DSD DACs and in addition to that it uses three per channel in stereo mode compared to just 1 for the 777.

    On Redbook CD though, the edge goes to the XA777ES with its parallel DACs :)

    Bigger does not always mean better. :)
     
  23. John Oteri

    John Oteri New Member In Memoriam

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    You've GOT to be joking, right? I have every version of Blue, from the original LP, reissue LP, old CD, remastered CD and Steve Hoffman's DCC Gold CD.

    Steve's SMOKES all of these other versions, which sound thin, solid state, grating and downright bad. Steve's version is much warmer, more natural sounding.

    One of his BEST efforts! :)
     
  24. sgb

    sgb Senior Member

    Location:
    Baton Rouge
    Sorry, John. I should have been more complete. I was comparing the CD to my 1971 original LP, my interest being piqued by Tom Port's "What do you hear on 'A Case of You?'" question. I am assuming that you believe "Steve's SMOKES all of the other versions" on CD, which it probably does. On my system (I went back and played it on the Rotel as I originally heard it before I posted this reply), and compared to the original LP, I find that the source is definitely brighter in the upper mids to high frequencies.

    This is not in keeping with most of the Hoffman transfers, and hence the conclusion I drew this morning. I apologize to you for not hearing things the way you do, but I hope you will allow me this opinion.
     
  25. rickjames

    rickjames New Member

    Location:
    Louisiana
    1) Is the SCD-1 any better than the SCD-777ES? (I probably won't be using the balanced outputs in the near future...)

    I've owned both units at the same time & A/B listened to both real time via my preamp input select switch. Frankly, I could not hear a bit of difference between the units. I did, however, sell the SCD777ES & keep the SCD-1. Why? I just liked the way it looks, and it does look fantastic.

    2) In CD playback - how does the SCD-1 compare to the competition in its price range (say $3000 - $5000)?

    A comparison I can offer is the SCD-1 vs. my Dodson DA217MKIID processor. This processor has upsampling and sounds better on most redbooks CD's. The Sony is close, but not as analog
    sounding as the Dodson. With high quality mastered CD's (as in Hoffman) the difference between the Sony & Dodson is minor at best. The Dodson is better on redbooks that are a bit bright or suffer from digititis. I have a friend who recently did the Richard Kern upgrade to the SCD-1 and to quote "it just floats my boat". The improvement in sound to him (and I have total faith in his judgement & ears) is dramatic over the stock SCD-1.

    3) Does the new multichannel SCD-XA777ES compare at all to the SCD-1 or the SCD-777ES?

    The reviews I've read have given the edge to the SCD-1 for two channel SACD & redbook playback.

    4) In SACD playback is there any competition in its price range?

    IMHO, the SCD777Es & SCD-1 are a high end bargain. The SCD-1 pops up now & again on OADE Bros. website for $2850.00 new & unopened.


    5) How does the Marantz SA-1 compare?

    Most reviews I've read stated the units sound alike on SACD playback, but the Marantz has a slight edge for redbooks. I believe it was Stereophile that put both units side by side & did this comparison.
     
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