Source — amp — speakers — acoustic treatment: what’s the right ratio?

Obviously this is highly subjective but I’m interested to know peoples’ thoughts: what importance would you place on the these four components in obtaining great sound, expressed as a % ratio? For example, source = 30%, amp = 10%, speakers = 40%, and acoustic treatment = 20%. Yes I know, expressing as %s may be a little arbitrary but I'm going with it!

I’ve heard so many conflicting accounts from dealers, forums and friends about this ... and, honestly, I don't have enough years' experience to be authoritative on the matter ... so am keen to hear more from you all!

There is some purpose to my question (it’s not just purely out of interest that I ask!) - am trying to figure where to prioritise upgrades. At the moment I’m on relatively entry level gear (speakers aside…or at least to a lesser extent - I have Martin Logan Motions which are lovely) but am wondering if, for example, I should pumping more coin into acoustic treatment than a ~AUD$4000 amplifier (bunch of contenders) and a ~$2500 turntable (either Planar 6 or Clearaudio Concept)..?

Would welcome all opinions!

 

speakers 50%, room treatment 20% > the rest.

 

Hi Byrie!

I would say: it depends on your listening room, and how much extra treatment it will need.

Suggesting a "normal" listening room with bookshelfs, plants, curtains, carpets etc - and not a complete empty one:

30% room treatment
40% speakers
20% source
10% amp

Bye Andrea

 

While room treatment is very important, it's hard to put a percentage on it without knowing more about your listening room. That being said, I'd put at least 30-40% in my speakers regardless.

 

I’ve always believed that one should put 50% of one’s total system budget into the speakers. Next is system setup and room treatment. After that, everything else.

With this speakers-and-room-first approach, you can be confident that you are accurately hearing any changes you make upstream.

 

Personally, I would say once you get a baseline of decent gear together, I wouldn't change any hardware until I optimized the room with appropriate room treatments and set up (that is unless your lifestyle choice is more about room aesthetics than sound). But I don't know, outside of your speakers, what your baseline level of gear is.

Room mode and room boundary reinforcement and cancellation, and uneven decay times across the musical frequency ranges, and flutter echo and these kinds of things that are happening in every listening environment, are making huge alterations in what you hear -- like 15 or 30 dB peaks and valleys in frequency response, shifting images, overhanging bass that masks detail, etc. We'd never tolerate this kind of response from an amp or a preamp or a CD player or a DAC or a phono cartridge or a turntable. We buy all this nice gear and the put it in these untreated rooms and set things up poorly, and it's like, what was the point of spending all that money on the nice gear in the first place?

After you get a baseline of decent gear and you treat the room and optimize the set up, then it's really just a matter of personal priorities about what you think is missing or what you'd like the system to do better or differently.

Speakers obviously have the most gross difference between them -- you can buy completely different sorts of speakers: horns, mini monitors, full range towers, electrostatics. Speakers can be wildly different, having not only wildly different characters but also very different frequency responses, dispersion characteristics, etc. But you say you have a decent set of speakers and you thing the rest of your system isn't up to the same level, so I might not focus on speakers if I were you (though if you have mini monitors that have limited bass response, adding a sub or changing speakers to get something that give you full output and dynamics down to at least 40 Hz can be a game changer).

Unless you think your amp is not capable of driving your speakers -- and really speakers and amps need to be thought of as a system, not so much as separate components -- I wouldn't necessarily turn my attention to the amp, depending on the type of speaker and its impedance and phase angle, and the type of amp and it's ability to deliver sufficient current into the load it can interact with the amplification in what that alter its performance.

Since you mention turntables, with turntables there are so many mechanical issues with playback, I'd focus next on getting the turntable that does the best job of minimizing mechanical self noise from motor vibration breakthrough, acoustic breakthrough, bearing noise, and the tone arm that does the best job of minimizing self-ringing, and then making sure I have a cartridge that works well with that arm. There's a lot of difference between the ability of turntables to deliver low level detail and maintain clarity in loud complex passages related to mechanical, not electrical, elements of the playback. Speakers and turntables and carts are really different from electronics and digital components in that their mechanical elements are huge parts of their sound producing character, so there tends to be a lot more difference between those kinds of components and multiple layers of different things to consider with them, than with more purely electronic components.

 

For me I allocated most of my resources on my most recent upgrades on an integrated amp and sources ( about 31% and 47% respectively) and 14% to speakers and 8% to interconnects and cables. As for room treatments I did some experimenting with some sculpted acoustic foam a while back which came in a package of six 24"x24" squares which I attached to the walls with 3M command strips, first, at the two early reflection points then equally spaced from there around the rest of the room. My goal was to reduce some slap echo effect and soften the sound of the room which I think I accomplished. Total cost of the experiment, $60. What you might consider the only other significant room treatment which had the most effect was when I replaced two area rugs with new ones of 100% wool with reclaimed fiber pads backed with natural rubber for around $2000 which would bring the total for room treatment to 11%. If you want something to have a profound effect on acoustics, rugs will do it and make the room look better and feel a lot more cozy.

I personally though would do what I've done if I were you and allocate most of my resources to sources (turntable, cartridge, CD player etc.) and amplification because a speaker is only as good as what's fed into it and speakers can be very, very good these days for what you pay for them principally because its one of the most competitive segments of the Hi Fi market. As for sound treatments, you can always add those when funds permit and they can incorporate new rugs as I have done or furnishing such as sofas and chairs which go along way to absorb and scatter sound and add to the character of a room.

 

Thanks for all your responses so far - very helpful!

Bit of extra context - I have two young children and don't have a dedicated listening room at this point (all my gear is in the lounge) so the acoustic treatment isn't an overly viable option at the moment ... it absolutely will be in a few years once they're older though and once we upsize! (Funnily enough, my wife isn't too keen on me attaching acoustic pads to the lounge walls...).

So I guess for now I was seeking advice around just how key the acoustic treatment aspect is vs what I can upgrade now (i.e. source and amp).

Also if its helpful, this is my current kit:

Source:
Music Hall MMF2.1 turntable + Rega Fono MM
NAD C538 CD Player
Apple Lossless Library

Amp / DAC:
Marantz PM6003
Arcam irDAC

Speakers:
Martin Logan Motion 20s

Keep those opinions coming in!

 

Well, acoustics and setup are key. But if you can't do anything about them because of family considerations, I don't think it matters that much which of the below you upgrade in what order. Your choice. You can get "better" gear in every one of those categories, or you can skip upgraditis and just enjoy the music.

So what are your priorities? What do you listen to more, vinyl or digital? Do you have the room for/ability to setup and integrate a subwoofer? Even with speakers that are -3 dB at 46 Hz like yours, getting flat, not falling, frequency response from 80 Hz through 40 Hz can be surprisingly revealing. What are the problems/issues you're looking to solve? Or qualities you don't have now that you want to gain?

I'm not sure what cartridge you have on the MMF2.1, but that's probably a quick and relatively easy upgrade from whatever was bundled with the MMF2.1. If you listen to a lot of vinyl, then for sure, a turntable/tonearm/cart upgrade is a good idea, but then you'll also want to likely upgrade the phono preamp at least.

 

Speakers 30%
Amp 30%
Source 20%
Cables 15%
Room 5%
Percentage is a crappy way to figure it. The total cost of my system would leave me over $5000 for room tunes at 5%.
I did it for about half that.

 

I still think speakers and setup should come first. Do the best you can with what you have. My listening room is also my living room. All the acoustic treatments are removable for when company comes.

(Except for the acoustic panels on the ceiling. Those stay.)

 

Vinyl, but I do have my entire library in lossless digital plus a bookcase full of CDs - so very much in both camps.

Not really. I'm pretty sure I don't require a subwoofer - the speakers have plenty of oompfh and clarity (at least to my ears) - certainly enough for the space in which they inhabit.

I guess I'm after better quality sound without having to acoustically treat the room. I have heard turntables next level up from mine (e.g. Planar 3) and the difference, whilst not dramatic, is clear. So I know I can improve by upgrading the turntable. What I'm not as clear on is the extent to which upgrading the amp will affect the sound quality. And is it a case of part and parcel: that is, if I upgrade the turntable, does it make sense to continue running it through my Marantz amp, or will the benefit of the upgraded turntable only properly be realised by upgrading the amp too?

Now this is rather a frustrating one... my Music Hall turntable came factory fitted with a basic Ortogon OM10. So I decided after two years to upgrade slightly to the Ortofon 2M red. However the dealer who fitted it kinda stuffed up the tone-arm and counterweight in the process. Long story short, I then came full circle and ended up having to get another dealer to fix it - apparently that turntable just isn't designed to have a cartridge as heavy the 2M... so they ordered in a new Ortofon OM10 and fitted that!!

Lastly, if I'm totally honest, I'm just ready to upgrade - plain and simple! I've had the current, fairly entry-level kit for close to 5 years and for someone who is as passionate as I am about music and sound quality, I feel I'm ready to move to the next level.

 

This. I don't know about room treatment. I guess, it all depends how bad your room is.

 

The real heart of the question I'm asking is, what do you mean by "better quality sound"? Better in what ways? Better soundstage focus? More revelation of inner detail? Better timbral accuray? etc. Decide what musical and sonic characteristics you want to be better and different and look for those characteristics in a component. Otherwise you're just kind of changing gear for the sake of changing gear.

If you just flat out have upgradeitis, and you're not in a position to upgrade the room or the set up (until I got a calibrated measuring mic and a correction file to be used with some free real time analysis software and started doing sweeps of my music room, I had thing set up pretty differently), the turntable is definitely a place where you can make an improvement and hear it.

I'm not a huge fan of the Rega table design. The tonearm is good, albeit lacking in the ability to adjust azimuth or easily adjust VTA, but that whole design of motor and tonearm coupled to a kind of ringy lightweight plinth and a total lack of isolation not just from the internal motor but from structure borne vibration, are things I think can be improved upon for blacker blacks, better retrieval of low level detail, more relaxed and realistic dynamics, better tracking, etc. (all results of lowering motor vibration breakthrough and acoustic breakthrough and other noise).

I know Rega has made some design changes in recent years -- adding that rigid brace from the main bearing to the tone arm mounting area, and offering a different motor control device which may lower motor vibration, though I think that's an add-on to the Planar 3 -- but if there's something at your price point that has a different design with some kind of motor isolation, a different kind of motor control, environmental isolation, more easily adjustable tonearm parameters, you might also want to demo that. I know that at the circa US$1K price point for a new table/arm there's not that much in the way of more distinguished competition. I haven't heard the Music Halls but I see they have one, the 5.3, at a price point similar to the Rega that has some design elements that try to decouple to motor from the platter and tonearm. If, as you said in your original post, you're ready to go up to something more along the cost lines of the Planar 6, you'll have a lot of different options.

One thing I would say you should "upgrade" is your own skill and tools so you don't have to rely on a dealer to mount a cartridge. Spend some of your upgrade money on a good protractor (personally I just use a $50 DB systems protractor and a $10 no-name Chinese-made digital VTF gauge which is as accurate and much easier to read than my old Shure balance scale), some needle noise pliers and small screw drivers whatever kind of stuff like that you need and a scale. There's no reason to rely on a dealer, especially if the dealer is going to screw something up.

 

I've build my setup around the Source. As they say "garbage in, garbage out". Speakers reflect the Signal they receive, IMHO.

Vinyl and Digital front end combined is about 40%
Preamp /Amplifiers 20%
Cables/Wires 10%
Speakers 25%
Treatments 5% mine are DIY, so not much capital invested.

 

It sounds like you have an itch that needs scratching. I say upgrade your turntable, AND, learn how to set it up yourself. If you are going to spin records, knowing basic turntable set up and maintenance is extremely advantageous. Ask your dealer for advice, watch youtube videos, find another local vinyl enthusiast, heck, I even suggest finding a beat up old turntable to experiment with.

As for the percentage thing, I used to be a believer, not so much anymore. After all these years, I've come to the conclusion the best thing to do is find a speaker you like the sound of, set them up as optimally as possible and match upstream components to the speakers. I have a dedicated room so treatment is not a problem.

You can treat the ceiling and not have to remove them. I've had quite a few visitors in my stereo room, and never once has anyone noticed the ceiling treatments unless I point them out. I wonder if @RZangpo2 has had a similar experience?

Good luck.

 

That's the old school way of doing it that I still use. Purchase speakers you really like first then when your ready find a synergistic amp to drive them, continue up stream from there.

 

Yes, no one really notices it unless I point it out.

 

I must be a Linnie at heart - I'm a source guy first; thinking it should be - ideally - 50% of your cost. Then downstream after that. Room treatment, if possible, is tweaking to get the very best out of the final system.

For example. I would rather have a $10,000 turntable and a $1000 pair of speakers than a $1000 turntable and a $10,000 pair of speakers. With the latter I will always be going crazy with the speakers revealing the deficiencies downstream.

Of course the end game is to have the best that you can afford - on all levels. Most of my gear is actually pretty evenly priced, especially once the KEF Q350s get replaced.