Source Component Most Sensitive to Interconnect Cable Changes?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by avanti1960, Aug 28, 2018.

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  1. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Aside from the very sensitive connection between phono and phono preamp that often requires short cable length, noise shielding and capacitance value compatibility to enable a cartridge to sound its best- the cable that connects phono preamp to line preamp / amplifier is also very sensitive to cable changes, so I have found.
    By that I mean that the sound quality is greatly influenced by different cable brands and models when compared to other sources- CD player, digital sources, etc.
    I am stunned at how much different the system sounds when using different cables after the phono preamp.
    The sound can literally be made or broken by different cables and does not seem to reflect a price / performance relationship. I have tried this many times in the past but never had such drastic results. Most likely the result of system changes.
    Bottom line- if you aren't satisfied with the sound of your vinyl setup- try a different interconnect cable!
     
  2. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    Are you using RCA or balanced from phono to amp?
     
  3. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    RCA
     
  4. TarnishedEars

    TarnishedEars Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Seattle area
    Is your phono-preamp a tube preamp? Usually that degree of cable sensitivity is confined to preamps with very high output impedances, such as either passive preamps, or tube preamps which are lacking cathode followers.
     
    Bananas&blow likes this.
  5. Tim S

    Tim S Senior Member

    Location:
    East Tennessee
    component most sensitive to changes in interconnects:

    [​IMG]
     
  6. DyersEve726

    DyersEve726 Schmo Diggy

    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    I would agree if he said the most expensive ones sounded the best. The fact that he said it's not cost dependent leads me to believe that he really hears a difference. If it was all in his head, the best sounding cables would be the most expensive ones. Confirmation bias.
     
  7. jfine

    jfine Forum Resident

    Looks like you're running MM and MC, if so same effect/differences?
     
  8. Mrtn77

    Mrtn77 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Paris
    His head might well be reacting to other factors than price. This cable here is green, that one red. Lettuce-green HAS to be better than blood-red !
     
    SandAndGlass and DyersEve726 like this.
  9. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    It's a no-brainer that the cable between the phono cart and the first active gain stage is the most significant in terms of sonic impact, especially with MM carts which have higher inductance than MC carts. With MMs, the cable will predictably and measurably have a pretty significant impact on the frequency response of the system in the audible range.

    Cartridges are passive generators and everything connected to them electronically before the signal hits an active gain stage is part of the cart's passive generating circuit

    In this case, the capacitance of the cable combines with the inductance of the cart and the resistance of the phono stage to form a resonating circuit that will have a ringing peak at a certain frequency and a steep roll off of frequency above the peak frequency.

    Cable capacitance will tune the frequency of the resonance -- more capacitance will tune it lower, less capacitance will tune it higher.

    Depending the frequency of the resonance and how well damped it is by the phono stage resistance (phono stage resistance will let that resonance ring more or less, depending on the resistance load), people will have difference psychological ways of perceiving this tuning you change cables. Buy there will be an audible and measurable impact on frequency response.

    MCs, because of their lower inductance, aren't usually impacted by this in the audible range because in their case the resonant frequency of the LCR is way up above the audible range.
     
    luckybaer, DPC, SandAndGlass and 3 others like this.
  10. Otlset

    Otlset I think I am I think

    Location:
    Temecula, CA
    Well of course. This underlies the OP's premise in perceiving changes in the cabling after the phono stage to the preamp. I agree with him as I've perceived changes with different interconnects in that area too.
     
    Minty_fresh likes this.
  11. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    I agree ICs are important, of course they are, and the old rule is that this belongs to fine tuning of the system once everything else is in place
     
    avanti1960 likes this.
  12. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    I am not going to challenge the notion that you cannot hear any differences in cables. But I will challenge that the reason you cannot hear any differences lies in your perception, the resolution of your system or both. End of discussion on this thread. Take the debate to your own thread.
     
  13. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Not changing or discussing the cable from cartridge to phono amp- I'm mentioning that even the cable from phono preamp to amplifier is sensitive to cable choice- more so than other source components.
     
  14. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Running the MC exclusively.
     
  15. DyersEve726

    DyersEve726 Schmo Diggy

    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    I've heard that digital coax cable choice is pretty important also, and that runs under 4.5 feet are prone to reflection, breaking the basic rule that shorter runs are better. I haven't A/B'd cables yet, but I just ordered a 6ft Blue Jeans cable to replace a 1.5ft Monoprice. I use the 1.5ft Monoprice digital coax cables for my analog interconnects with good results, but apparently it's a bad length for actual digital transmission.
     
  16. ZenMango

    ZenMango Forum Resident

    Location:
    Florida
    One factor I've found that makes a difference in phono-pre to linestage is wether the cable is shielded or not (shielded=better)
     
    avanti1960 likes this.
  17. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Here is a summary of cables tried between phono preamp and system amplifier and their effects on sound quality.

    1) Wire World Luna 8, 1 meter RCA / RCA ($40.00) . The reigning champion- really does it all except for a noticeable mid bass bloom and slightly loose lower bass. I really love the sound of this cable in my system. Superbly detailed midrange and dynamics.
    2) Kimber PBJ, same spec. ($117.00). A touch more transparent and dynamic than the Wire World. Bass is noticeably tighter and has a better sound quality. Frequently hear an etch or grainy sound in the lower treble that makes them un-listenable. Verdict- unacceptable.
    4) Audioquest Evergreen. My first non-basic interconnect cable. Sounded great at first but its lack of resolution and bass definition make it unacceptable for long term use. Nothing bad here but not enough good. Verdict- a spare set for second system.
    5) Audioquest King Cobra ($150.00 street price). Very pleasant, clear and somewhat dynamic sound. Neutral and smooth but not very exciting or engaging. Verdict- not good enought for high quality vinyl reproduction- a good match for digital sources.
    6) Nordost Red Dawn. ($539.99). Most expensive cables I have ever tried. Lots of silver in the cables from what I understand. The sound at times is absolutely stunning with clarity, dynamics, crystal clear and delicate high frequencies. However many recordings flat out sound awful- some kind of noisy grain in the upper midrange and a strange constrained bass sound. Bad system synergy- much better suited to a digital source IMHO. Verdict- unacceptable for my vinyl playback system.
    7) KAB Cardas Spiral air with gold over copper connectors. ($120.00) Performance TBD. I won't know what to do with these- there are no directional arrows ! :)
     
  18. Slippers-on

    Slippers-on Forum Resident

    Location:
    St.Louis Mo.
    Hmmmm. I've never thought that the cable from phono amp to pre amp was the most sensitive. All of mine seem to be about the same as far as sensitivity is concerned. I even have a iFI MICRO iUSB 3.o power between my music computer and the Marantz Streamer/DAC and I can clearly hear the difference with each cable change and what it does to the sound, but I don't think I've noticed it being any less sensitive than what I hear from the phono amp to preamp. Just 2 weeks ago I removed a Synergy Research Core interconnect cable from between my Yamaha Home theater and the Musical Surrounding Phono amp and replaced it with a Analysis Plus Silver Apex interconnect and the changes where just as sensitive as with any other cable swamp in the hi-fi rig in the 2 channel room.
     
  19. Slippers-on

    Slippers-on Forum Resident

    Location:
    St.Louis Mo.
    Is this what you hear when using them with the phono amp -> amp connection? You've tried them on other sources and not heard the same characteristics from the cables?

    For instance...I've had my Wireworld Silver Eclipse 7 and Analysis Plus Silver Apex cables on other sources and I hear the same characteristic.

    What speaker cables are you using?
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2018
  20. Minty_fresh

    Minty_fresh Forum Resident

    Location:
    B.
    Same for me and I absolutely agree with your assessment on sound.

    I’m now subbing in Morrow MA4’s with Eikman Copper RCA’s and the difference was really big. Moreso than I had hoped given the price.
     
    avanti1960 likes this.
  21. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Europe
    Once you have time and money, try the following two ICs:
    Crimson
    Audio Note Lexus
     
    avanti1960 likes this.
  22. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Sure, I hear differences in cables on the other sources too but it seems to make more of a difference between phono preamp and amp. To the extent that it can make or break the sound which is quite surprising and I had not noticed this before. Using Kimber 8PR speaker cables.
    Tried the KAB Cardas interconnects last night and early impressions are good.
     
    33na3rd and Slippers-on like this.
  23. Slippers-on

    Slippers-on Forum Resident

    Location:
    St.Louis Mo.
    Your experience is different than mine. You think the gain setting on phono has anything to do with it?

    You have a nice system. Ever try borrowing cables from Thecablecompany.com ? Those Wireworld Silver Eclipse 8 would probably be excellent in your system. Platnium Eclipse from TT to phono amp, and Silver Eclipse (Silver over copper) 8 or Eclipse 8 (all copper) from phono amp to amp. Borrow them to see what type of synergy you get?
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
  24. avanti1960

    avanti1960 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Chicago metro, USA
    Don't think so, gain is the best it can be for the cartridge. I may look into the cable co. deal. Didn't know they did that. I like the new KAB Cardas cable so far though- best treble I have heard yet- extended to the limits, clear but still clean and natural.
     
  25. Slippers-on

    Slippers-on Forum Resident

    Location:
    St.Louis Mo.
    If you can...take advantage of the Cable company's offer....you'd be surprised at the level of fidelity the Eclipse cable unlocks from your gear. The WW has a great design as well. ...very different from the KAB Cardas.
     
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