Speakers for 300B SET Amps

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by rebbi, Jun 12, 2015.

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  1. Slack

    Slack Forum Resident

    Have you placed your ear in front of the bass horn?
    Listen to how much midrange is coming out down there.
    No amount of tweaking is going to stop that colouration or strange dispersion.
    Of course in a large theatre and at stage height they would work fine.Indeed that is what they were designed for.
     
  2. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    I lived with LaScala 2s for two years. I guess it depends on what you call midrange. The only problem I and most people I know that have or have owned them is their tonal balance is a little titled toward the upper end. If you're crossing 2 ways over at 1500 wouldn't you be getting some mids out of the woofer in most conventional systems. If they would fit they'd definitely be worth a listen. And have you ever heard a pair of original LaScalas with an ALK crossover, fastrac horn and bracing? Sound amazing in moderate to large rooms
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  3. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    I believe they are part of the same group, FWIW.
     
  4. Slack

    Slack Forum Resident

    Which is why the tweeters and bass/mid drivers in most speakers are located as close together as possible.Also why most floor standers using two or more bass drivers are 2.5 ways with the midrange cut off to the lower driver.
    I have experimented with taming resonances in Klipsch midrange horns.If anything it made them sound worse.
     
  5. rebbi

    rebbi Active Member Thread Starter

    And then there's this. Worth pursuing?
     
  6. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    Sure and they're are plenty of nice sounding speakers that don't follow your rules. As for midhorn resonances its a minimal problem to begin with. Lots of other speaker forums have tons of solutions. Though the easiest with older models is to just change out the horn. But totally cool if you don't like them. Many people do and the OP should check them out for himself.
     
  7. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    I was going to suggest that. Looks intriguing for the price.
     
  8. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    Love Audio Note speakers. Heard a few pairs. I especially like their silver voice coil HE speakers.
     
  9. rebbi

    rebbi Active Member Thread Starter

    I understand that this is an older model. From what I can tell, the AN-E/Sp dates from around 2003 and sold for around $3500, give or take.

    Need my boys Richard Austen and David Cope to chime in here. :p
     
  10. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    Audio Note are just one of those speakers where I've never heard a bad one. I like the design and sound all the way back to the original Snell speakers. If I wasn't set on a pair of black Cornwall 2s I'd be real interested in those
     
  11. finn

    finn Forum Resident

    You will find these may date from around 94-95 going on the cabinets being the original chipboard manufacture. The terminals may have been changed from the original plastic terminals from that vintage.
     
  12. Ken Clark

    Ken Clark Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago Suburbs
    I've heard both LaScala's and Cornwall's, and owned Cornwall's for a few years. I'd take them over the LaScala any day. Mine were Cornwall 2's with Crites woofers and crossovers and sounded wonderful. The only issue was my wife hated them because of the size, and having them in a fairly small room only made them appear even larger! They work very well against the back wall and in a small room is really not a problem. They also have a nice full sound even at low volumes.
     
  13. rebbi

    rebbi Active Member Thread Starter

    The pair looks a little banged up: the terminals are discolored, etc. I wonder if that's why they're not selling. You'd expect AN speakers to be snapped up pretty quickly.
     
  14. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    The silver connectors discolour fast - take an eraser pen and rub it off.

    My AN J/Spe I bought in 2003/2004 in black. But the big Audio Note writing seems to be older (I'd have to look at the back of mine to be sure). The serial number is listed which might be able to tell you the age. Or ask the guy selling them.

    It's the older cabinets for sure since it has the holes for the speaker grill cover. For the price though - it will be the closest thing to a current Audio Note that isn't a current Audio Note. I heard a very old AN E/L chipboard that sounded quite excellent. The question isn't will it be as good as a current $7k AN E but rather will it be as good as XYZ for $1500. And if you have the cabinet - you can always upgrade to the new Hemp drivers etc in time.

    Is the guy using a coat hanger as his speaker wire?
     
  15. rebbi

    rebbi Active Member Thread Starter

    Hi, Folks!
    Many thanks to all of you for your advice and counsel.
    I pulled the trigger on a slightly used pair of Omega "custom shop" monitors. These use the same big cabinet as the Super Alnico Monitor, but the driver is different. It's the alnico motor version of their Super 7 Driver. The finish is ebony veneer and I think that the binding posts and wiring are also upgraded. The seller wants to move up the Omega line to the top of the line production model, which is the Alnico XRS.
    I am pumped about these and will report back when I've received them and had a chance to run them in.
     
  16. rebbi

    rebbi Active Member Thread Starter

    For anyone who might be interested, I have posted a three-part series of articles on my audio blog about SET-friendly speakers. It's here. Part IV, on the DIY option, should be up soon, too. Enjoy!
     
  17. Sergey Godunov

    Sergey Godunov Member

    Location:
    Centreville, VA
    I bought a pair of Audio Note AN-E SPe in January. They are probably the last pair I will ever need.
    Paired with a custom built 45 tube amp producing only 1 wpc, they sound amazing. I also have a 300b amp, more power, more gain. Amazing sound again.
     
  18. Gang-Twanger

    Gang-Twanger Forum Resident

    I've been enjoying the sensitive, efficient speaker route the past 3 to 4 years and enjoying it a lot. The good ones tend to have lots of depth and a very-rich, open sound. I run the large Wharfedale W90's (Ported cabs and alnico drivers throughout), which some may feel have too-large of a cab for certain rooms, but I don't have any problem in my roughly 14'x12' room. I've been using push/pull tube gear with them, and they don't need much volume to hit their stride. They have a soundstage that's like a wall of sound, and their timbral skills are their strongest attribute. Outstanding at reproducing instruments and voices. They're especially-good with horn instruments (The bigger horns like the baritone sax sound amazing... Tower Of Power and that sort of thing), guitars, Hammond-type organs, and that sort of thing. They play clean down to about 35hz when the volume level is at it's sweet spot, and they do very-well with things like organ pedal tones.

    I do want to get into the ultra-low-power thing, and the W90's are about 93-95dB efficient and very-sensitive, so they can do well with something of the ultra-low-power, high-current variety. However, I'm probably going to buy a pair of Wharfedale E90's, which were introduced more than 15 years after the W90's. The E90's are even more-efficient and have a VERY-stable 8ohm impedance that does not fluctuate at all throughout their entire frequency range, unlike so many speakers, and this is why I think they would be excellent full-range speakers for an SET/ultra-low-power setup, so I'm sure I will go that route at some point. The E90's have a very-deep bass response that is quicker than the W90's, so they should be a nice counter to the earlier Wharfedales and will do an outstanding job of picking up where the W90's leave off (I want a speaker that will do a really-excellent job with late '70's as well as 1980's music and will basically do well with the kind of music where the W90's can't. The E90's have a small footprint too, so it's not a big deal adding them into the fold.
    [​IMG]

    And here are the W90's (AK is offline, so I couldn't access my pics... Had to grab a generic one).
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2015
    Richard Austen likes this.
  19. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    rebbi,

    I would give some thought to what kink of sound signature you are looking for. Single driver speakers are one type of sound and efficient horn speakers are another type of sound. The main idea behind single driver speakers is no crossover, no phase problems associated with crossovers, just one nice sound with rich mid's.

    Though it might sound like a good idea, using a full range single driver and adding an extra top/bottom speaker to it, it is not as you will be defeating the whole purpose and the chances of you getting any kind of natural sound out of this combination is almost nonexistent. Do one or the other, not both.

    In saying that, I have no issues with combining any type of speaker or equipment, just as long as it sounds good to my ears. This is one combination that I don't feel would have any beneficial outcome.

    The single driver approach works best with fairly large and real large cabinets to give the single speaker both dynamic range and efficiency. It's different than placing that same driver in a shoebox size cabinet. I have seen someone on eBay who builds and sells nice single driver cabinets for under $1k, but most really nice ones will require extensive woodworking and will blow your $2k budget.

    I have never heard the Omega's but they seem very impressive, considering their quite reasonable price point and I think would be a better match for you unless you are looking for a more Front Of House sound, then the Tekton's or the Zu's would be excellent choices, especially for the $.

    300B's designed to run in class-A triode mode are fairly simple circuit designs. The back side to this is that all of the parts, including the 300B tubes and transformers need to be ultra top shelf to get the sweetness that you might be after, the inexpensive ones just won't cut the mustard. Your AN kit amp should do the trick quite nicely.

    Altec model 19's use their 811B horn, designed to run as low as 800 cycles, but is crossed over on the 19's at 1,200. Your main issues with Altec horns are not pricing issues, they are size issues. The 811B horn is just under 19" in width and the larger 511B horn, which goes down to 500-cycles is 5" larger.

    While I am a horn fanboy as well as a Altec fanboy and don't have any issues with the model 19's, except for two. One is the absolutely stupid asking prices that you will come across. Two is the absolutely stupid prices.

    The model 19 consists of a 811B horn with a driver. These can be purchased used for about $500/pair in excellent condition. An Altec frequency dividing network would add an additional $200 or so. Toss in Emminance Kappa Pro bass speakers for under four hundred a pair and you have all of the makings of the model 19's for $1,000, except for the cabinets. Nothing magical or mystical here, the cabinets are just ordinary boxes that any local cabinet maker can build for about $400-each.

    The 19's have a cabinet that is 30" wide, you could have a have a cabinet made 20" wide, to cover the width of the horn and make it taller, enough for two 15" bass speakers if you wish, efficiency, about 100db. You will have a large, open, dynamic sound that the Tekton's or Zu's will not be able to touch. The Zu's and Tekton's will have a more modern day refined sound which will be different than the sound of legacy speakers, which have a more raw, in your face live sound.

    In other words, with your 300B's you will be able to totally rock out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2015
  20. vinylkid58

    vinylkid58 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Victoria, B.C.
    I read thru your diy Part IV entry, and there's no mention of http://www.diyaudio.com/, where there is an active speaker building section, with multi-way and full range (single driver) sub-sections.

    jeff
     
  21. peter skinner

    peter skinner New Member

    Location:
    South coast, UK
    Something from leftfield.....I use, and love, a rather obscure single full-range driver from a Hungarian company, Sonido, which can be ordered direct for maybe 300 dollars. They also sell diy speaker plans ideal for this driver. You get a real 96db (real is rare) with an easy, steady 8ohm load. I add a REL sub to help the bass (pretty decent anyway) You could build all this for well under $1000.
    The sound is astonishingly fine; indeed Paul Messenger reviewed this design...in a cabinet by a Polish firm but identical to the DIY offering. He said they were ''outstanding by any standard'' and the most enjoyablet speaker he had reviewed that year (Hi Fi|Critic).
    They are to me...and quite a few audio friends...way, way superior to my Audionote SPE Es and a lot more efficient too. Sadly, it takes a leap in the dark to buy such goods, and many people are wary of such designs. I fully understand that. I'd feel the same.
    But conventional box designs won't get you very far if using SET amps (I have three , from1.5 watts to six watts.) They just aren't capable of genuine high efficiency..despite what the makers claim. You rarely get more than about 93db in truth. That's physics for you.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2015
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  22. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Peter your post is bizarre - you know that Audio Note makes SET amps of around 8 watts right - are you saying to me that you can't get deafening levels with your AN E and 7-8 watts? Efficiency and sensitivity is worthless by themselves - what is worthwhile is real world capability and no single driver has any real bass depth, dynamics (at any frequency) and usually rather terrible treble because one driver can't cover the frequency spectrum (they almost always sound spitty, bright and thin) - when pushed even moderately they compress badly which rules out virtually all rock and roll music and anything in the amplified synthesized genres and any large scale classical pieces. Subs don't fix that - they merely add bass depth and if they are entering the audible portion of the frequency range they're going to be heard - subs are only good when they operate in sub sonic "feeling bass" territory - better felt and not heard. Once the sub is heard and is operating in the audible bass range - they lack cohesiveness with the next driver in the system (the satellite). For that not to happen the sub has to be crossed over low enough so that the main speaker handles all of the audible bass and the sub is serving to enhance the ambiance or reach pedal organ notes. That requires a main speaker to be able to at least reach 30hz with some power.

    Single drivers like Teresonic with an 8 inch driver are much better than anything smaller and they have the big advantages of being able to run with 1-3 watt amps (the AN's can't), but Teresonic is probably the only single driver I've ever heard that could satisfy me - but the price and the size are not attractive. And it still doesn't have remotely the bass of the AN E nor the treble extension nor the dynamics. Single drivers do possess an attractive holographic openness in the sound however - but a lot has to be traded away for this one advantage in the midrange.

    Single drivers tend to project better in the nearfield which is a big advantage - they always sound a LOT more sensitive in the real world especially if it is a horn/quasi-horn design.
     
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  23. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Gang Twanger

    Nice reply - I have the Wharfedale Vanguards (the updated version of the E-70) and I don't believe they made a V series out of the E90. The V Series was the last series Wharfedale put out before they had financial trouble and sold to the Chinese. Then got sold again under the group that owns Quad. The Vanguards you should look out for as well simply because they're newer and sold a fair bit so might be able to get parts for them. I want to get mine restored at some point but I live out of the country. Easy to drive - 40hz-23khz 8ohm (mostly 10 ohm) and 95dB 2.83V/meter. They can play seriously seriously loud - up to 120dB. There was a pro series for the speaker used by DJs for weddings and parties with handles on them - but I forget what they were called - basically the exact same speaker but with sturdier corners and the handles to take some hits. The E-90 also had such a pro-counterpart.

    [​IMG]
     
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