Speakers. Jumper wires instead of supplied plates. Any sonic benefits?

Not all of them are wrong and when they are, it is usually science itself that makes that determination, adjustment and/or correction.

In any case, science & technology has done more to improve the lot of the human race than any single belief system of which I am aware - and continues to improve.

Frankly I find puzzling the skepticism of science in light of this. Over the past several centuries its accomplishments have infinitely outweighed its drawbacks from where I stand.

Naturally, science has its limitations and there are some things it cannot answer or explain. I simply do not view high fidelity sound reproduction as one of those things.

 

Fully agree. I'm criticizing the method of rapid switching between components under test. Not AB testing itself. I know for a fact that I don't hear any differences when I do quick switches between components, so I am not at all surprised that AB tests using quick switches arrive at the same conclusion, i.e. that subjects cannot reliably tell the difference. A good scientific test should try to replicate the conditions under which a given phenomenon is hypothesized to take place, and since I and some of the other forum users only experience the differences between, say, jumpers, after extended listening, any meaningful test should try to replicate that. In my opinion that is the way that science works: If someone criticizes a given methodology, then somebody in the scientific community rises to the challenge and uses the suggested alternative methodology. In this case that would be trials lasting several weeks for each component switch.

The problem is that it gets very expensive then, and as jupiterboy wrote, in hifi there aren't the kind of money available to perform that kind of science. Although, in fairness to cable skeptics, I think that the cable manufacturers should come together and finance a study like that. We're not talking stratospheric, CERN-level expenses.

AND - if a test like that turned out the same as the quick-switch tests, I would rest my case, and never again participate in a cable debate. And enjoy my placebo quietly

 

And, therefore, the method should be discarded? Because it disapproved industry propaganda?

 

You'd think, if it was so obvious that some folk nearly "jump out their skin", a few minutes play, then switching, would be patently clear. Just sayin'

 

Personally I have found rapid fire A/B switching extremely effective in making those extremely minute comparisons. For example, I wanted to compare between two amplifiers - a McIntosh MC2505 solid state with an MC240 tube that I later acquired.

When I had first listened to the MC240, I was absolutely convinced angels wept and the seas had parted. It had been my expectation the 240 would probably sound better and I truly believed it did. But soon after I did some A/B switching, I soon realized the MC240 really no better sounding than the 2505. Not to go into a lot of boring details, this experimentation went over long periods of time with lengthy intervals between sessions, having friends do the switching instead of myself, me doing the switching while friends compared, using all types of music from classical, to rock, to jazz and even test tones.

The final verdict was that it was impossible for anyone to positively distinguish between the two amplifiers - except for one very small item: Most of us did seem to note slightly less bass from the 240 than the 2505. This difference was just barely perceptible and only with music with pronounced bass content.

This minute distinction would have been impossible to make without instantaneous A/B switching. Period.

Surely the difference between a solid state amplifier and a tube amplifier is many times the difference that would otherwise be observed by switching a pair of speaker jumpers.

Also bear in mind I had initially believed the MC240 sounded vastly superior as well. Unless I undertook the steps that I did, I would be here today telling everybody my tube amplifier sounds far superior to my SS amplifier.

Finally, I strongly suspect an independently conducted laboratory controlled anechoic test of a loudspeaker with different cables (assuming of the proper gauge and material (copper) - would be the last thing a high priced speaker cable manufacturer would want to do. Even less likely if the test were strictly subjective without laboratory measurements. Just a guess.

 

Well, seen from my vantage point, this just proves my point ;-) However, I'm not ruling out that others have more golden ears than I do and are able to spot differences with quick switches. But the problem with quick switches is that you don't begin a new trial with a clean slate. Your judgement is influenced by what you just heard. I'm sure most of us have experienced hearing new layers in the music on a better system elsewhere, and then when we get home, we are also able to hear those things in our own system. It's like with wine tasting, you cannot completely clean your taste buds between wines.

 

With acoustic memory as short as it is, rapid fire AB switch is the only way to detect a difference, IMO. In this day & age think of it as motorized vehicles trumping horse & buggy.

 

It may be that some aspects of acoustic memory are short, but others are clearly not. I can still remember my father's voice, even though he died six years ago.

 

John Atkinson, John Curl and Robert Harley along with other highly respected experts in the audio world could not disagree more.

 

All these naysayers are making my speakers sound sh*tty...

 

But it's not always "what I want to hear ." Even if it was, either way that still flies in the face of the argument being made that there is nothing to hear. And it's not about my beliefs. I have never heard an explanation that satisfies me as to why I hear what I hear. Or why others do not hear what I hear. It's always some dogmatic lecture about how what I hear doesn't actually exist because science. Graphs are posted, audiophile "expertise" is quoted, dodgy testing is sited but at the end of the day, I don't think that we fully grasp why people react differently to different audio cues but I'm convinced that we do. I'm not averse to scientific explanation and I don't buy into much of the fringe-element jiggery-pokery that one sees in audio. The screws on my components are all still nice and tight and my electrical sockets are not dangling from the walls. I own no Shakti stones. I'm also not averse to the concept that the science may eventually evolve to a point where I can hear a satisfying explanation. Until then, round round we go.

The basic issue I have with cable threads is that the argument against differences between cables is based on a conceit which oozes condescension. Team Science always approaches the debate with the mindset that the opposing view is exclusive to Luddites, moneyed idiots, and the hearing and/or intellectually impaired. They never question their own beliefs because there is an unquestionable catholicism about them. The jury is in. The science is there. Two men enter Thunderdome but one man leaves. It's dogma and the fierce adherence to same. But science evolves. No one here is likely to have a leech attached to them at a health care facility at this stage. We can travel at speeds surpassing 12 MPH and our innards don't liquify. That we can all accept. It wasn't always so. Those are things people used to firmly believe. Because science. The science of the time, that is...Why is it so hard to accept that maybe we're still attaching leeches to the ears of people who actually do hear something that others may not ?

For a hobby where people are so quick to trot out "scientific" explanations, there sure are a lot of positions taken that make me scratch my head. Bill, your avatar is the SACD trademarked logo. You don't have to wade far into the audiophile swamp to come across the sect that will throw their "science" into your face and vehemently deny the need for SACD or any other hi-rez format because it is a) superfluous and b) a rip-off because according to them, a Redbook CD captures all the information a human is capable of processing. Because science. Is that a belief you share with them ? Me neither.

Meet me at the stake.

D.D.

 

If it is proved, and it will only be proved through a scientific method, that jumper cables do make a difference, will you still be so judgemental of the objective point of view?

 

Actually, leeches have made a comeback in wound care :-D Just goes to show that science evolves and sometimes swallows a camel or two. Eventually.

 

OK, but you are twisting this into some defense of science. No need. Everyone is on board, including me. Thing is, as you say, science revises itself. And anyhow, it's not the source of revision, it's the result. We've worked with inelegant math for a variety of physical phenomena and revised that math to work with updated assumptions. It's a process. We're not there yet. But hell, we've got music collections and stereos to pass the time with until we get there.

 

Maybe it is time to have one "Hardware Forum for Cablers" and one "Hardware Forum for non-Cablers"

 

And a third for the regular people in the middle. I think there's a few.

 

There are perhaps dozens of equally eminent experts who could not disagree more with them either.

In the end, one must weigh the evidence against personal experience and arrive at the conclusion that the individual deems most logical.

I have detailed just a few of the basics for developing my current position on these matters - subject to change based on evidence to the contrary. Until that time comes, I consider the whole jumper swapping argument weak and untenable - again, based on evidence, practical & learned knowledge and of course, experience.

As always, YMMV.

 

@DrZhivago

When undertaking something is as simple as the topic you began, why not simply just go ahead perform the experiment yourself and tell us what you have experienced yourself firsthand.

No matter what was said here - yea or nay - we're talking about 2 little pieces of wire and maybe 10 minutes to find out what 7 pages of posts (and counting) will not.

 

Hi

As there's still some cost involved (wire) I wanted to get some perspective from forum members who had done this before.

As for 7 pages of posts I suggest you give yourself (and few other posters) a big pat on the back for:

- contributing nothing to my original question
- hijacking this thread to incite and wage the "subjectivist vs objectivist" war

Kind Regards

 

Well Said!

 

John Curl "thought he heard a difference" with the Intelechip. I rest my case. I have neither time nor energy to unearth Atkinson's & Harley's Follies. BTW, I owned a Curl designed pwr amp for 12 yrs & I wouldn't hesitate to buy another one.

 

I posted a link and provided a quote a few pages back for your viewing pleasure, but it's obvious your mind is closed.....shame really as you might actually learn something worthwhile. Noted in the link, John Curl could not tell the difference between a Levinson pre amp he designed and a Dynaco in a blind test. Case closed.

 

Sage words from a legend.

"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

 

You're right. Apologies ...

As for your original question: Previously in the thread, I mentioned that my Audience jumpers gave a big improvement. I bought them used, so that I could sell them again without too much of a loss if I felt that they didn't improve SQ. I would suggest you also try and find a used pair, if necessary arm yourself with a bit of patience until some show up on the used market.

Another thing you may try is if you can borrow a second set of speaker cables and then try biwiring. I have had speakers in the past where I couldn't hear a difference, and I have had speakers where even a cheap second set of speaker cables gave a big improvement.