Standmount speakers for people who dislike any brightness?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by back2vinyl, Oct 18, 2017.

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  1. back2vinyl

    back2vinyl Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    London, UK
    As promised, here's the actual sound of my ATC SCM11 speakers playing what I think is a challenging piece of music.

    In fact, it's only one speaker - the front left - to avoid any interference between speakers, and only the front left channel is playing from the original recording. The sound coming out of the speaker is recorded through a UMIK-1 condenser microphone placed about 2ft in front of the speaker, pointing towards the tweeter, with the grill on as normal. It is a mono microphone and so the sound you will hear is mono.

    Click to play - front left channel in mono

    When I listen to that through the speakers, my ears hear a nasty, sharp, ringing, distorted edge to the vocals. (It's from a Talking Heads DVD-A, by the way.)

    And yet, it's not the fault of the speakers, because here is a digital rip of the front left channel taken from the DVD-A itself, copied to the right channel to make it mono like the microphone recording of the speaker, and volume matched:

    Click to play - front left channel of original DVD-A

    Remarkably similar, I think, considering what a difference room effects make.

    So my criticism isn't that the speakers are inaccurate. If anything, my criticism is that the speakers are TOO accurate!

    What I mean is this. If I listen to either of those clips through my SCM11 speakers, they sound terrible to my ears. And yet if I listen to either of those clips through my Audeze LCD-4 headphones, they sound fine - completely unremarkable and hardly any sign of the horrible edge to the vocals. That's because LCD4 headphones are very forgiving and evidently have a frequency response that eliminates the problem I'm experiencing without taking away anything from the music.

    So what I want is a loudspeaker version of my Audeze LCD-4 headphones!

    What do you think? Do those clips sound bad to you, or is it just my ears?
     
  2. PATB

    PATB Recovering Vinyl Junkie

    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    Speakers that sound like the LCD-4 would cost $$$$$. Just get an Epos K1/Harbeth P3, and listen to headphones for the most part.
     
  3. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    It good to get some context on what you consider to be bright and not bright. I too like Audeze headphones because they are not shrill and bright sounding compared to most phones. They are also very warm and full sounding. I would bet that Audio Note speakers will be to your liking. Harbeth speakers, as others have mentioned, may also be a possible contender, but, they do have a touch of hardness/sibilance (the 40.2 excepted). I doubt that you would be able to easily find them, but JM Reynaud speakers would also be good candidates.
     
  4. chodad

    chodad Hodad

    Location:
    USA

    That's what I did. I got the Loki and it transformed my system.
     
  5. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    A little square of tissue paper over the tweeter of the ATC speakers.
     
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  6. pdxway

    pdxway Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon, USA
    Song is bright when listening with my smart phone, but not enough to make me cringe.
    Just be careful what you wish for. Once you get the less bright speakers, you might miss the details you have currently.
    For years, I had the same issue you are having. Many rock songs sounded great in my car, but sounded too bright when playing back with my home system. I went through many difference amps and finally found one that sounded smooth. If you can get Parasound a23 or a21 in your area, give it a try with your speakers.
     
  7. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    I'm thinking you might like panel speakers, like Magnepans. IMO, they're very smooth and not as revealing as many claim. They give a slight sense of listening through a filter, some call it a "Maggie mist." They also allow convenient attenuation of the highs with their rear panel resistor jacks. I think Vandersteens are likely your best bet for dynamic box speakers.
     
  8. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    Don´t think these files can sound good, with any speaker that is reasonably OK. They were in principle unlistenable.
     
  9. pdxway

    pdxway Forum Resident

    Location:
    Oregon, USA
    Parasound UK offers 45 days trial. I strongly suggest giving a pair of Parasound a23 a try. Other than shipping cost, you have nothing to lose and lots to gain.

    I have a pair of a23 powering my 4 speakers in my 4.1 setup. Very happy with the results. My Pioneer SC95 digital amp got nice reviews, but was still harsh with my Paradigm. But using it as preamp is great with its room correction capabilities.
     
  10. Mike-48

    Mike-48 A shadow of my former self

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    I wouldn't play billiards with you! The speaker has something like a 5 dB rise from 1 kHz to 2.5 kHz, right where the ear is most sensitive. It's great that you like what you have! Still, that response would strike many people (including me) as too forward in the upper midrange and treble. I would not expect it to be a good solution for someone who dislikes brightness.

    I second the recommendation by @Erik Tracy of the Harbeth P3ESR. I have a pair and love them. Harbeth, Spendor, Graham, and Stirling are the best known of the speakers from the heritage of the BBC research program of the mid-twentieth century. Such speakers often have very natural timbres, avoiding harshness without being closed in.

    As to the ATCs, @back2vinyl , the FR graph of your ATCs from Stereophile, does look a little elevated at and above 10 kHz, which could be irritating to some (including me). EQ could tame that. However, I wonder if part if the problem could be the room. If you haven't taken care to kill slap echo and absorb first reflections from all your speakers (including floor and ceiling reflections if possible), any speaker with an extended FR will tend to sound bright and irritating. There is no way around the need to address room acoustics, though more directional speakers (such as the Janszen Carmelita) can help a lot. I don't know how suitable they would be for a surround setup.

    If you read the magazines, I suggest you look at reviews (past and present) by Robert E Greene in The Absolute Sound. He is a musician himself and dislikes speakers with un-smooth or rising treble.
     
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  11. Mike-48

    Mike-48 A shadow of my former self

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    P.S. No speaker that is decent will make terrible recordings sound good, though electrostatics and ribbons tend to have the least treble distortion, which can make a difference. One solution, as others have suggested, is some kind of EQ. The Schiit seems to be getting good reactions from those who use it, and it's cheap enough.

    P.P.S. Avoid any speaker whose review says it has "modern" sound. That means too bright.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2017
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  12. Colin M

    Colin M Forum Resident

    You may want look at speakers that use a ribbon technology for a tweeter. I personally recommend giving the Quad Z1 a try.
     
  13. back2vinyl

    back2vinyl Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    London, UK
    Many thanks for all the comments - I'm reading them all with enormous interest.

    Just to touch on a couple of points above:

    That Stereophile review is for the previous version of the SCM11. I should have made it clear that I have the latest version (with the curved cabinets) which I think updated the crossover and drivers:

    ATC SCM11 latest version

    I agree that electrostats or panels might offer a way out - my dream speakers are Quad electrostats - but it's a surround setup so cost and space are both large obstacles.

    On Harbeths - previous to the SCM11s, I had a pair of Harbeth Super HL5s in a stereo setup - not the current Plus model but the one before. My feeling about these were that they were actually TOO mellow in the 1 kHz to 3 kHz range, to the point of sounding muffled, and yet had a slightly unpleasant edge to the higher frequencies. I understand the Plus version has filled in a lot of that crater in the 1 kHz to 3 kHz range but I don't know how the top end sounds. Although I'm tempted to give Harbeths another try, I flinch slightly at the price - they seem terribly over-priced when compared with ATC which are probably better speakers but that's to open up a different debate!

    The more I think about it, the more I think I should have titled this thread "Which speakers sound like Audeze LCD-4 headphones?" They do have this way of making even badly recorded music pleasant to listen to, yet without sounding muffled or giving you the sense that anything's missing.
     
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  14. tommytune

    tommytune Forum Resident

    Location:
    Iowa
    Is there a store in your area to listen to the Usher Audio N-6300? I have the floor standers that have the same drivers as the 6300's and ( after selling my old speakers ), no more harsh/bright music for me.
     
  15. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    I have been fighting this battle for years. My initial solution was to find a pair of speakers that were a bit soft. This tamed the irritation, but the loss of detail and resolution always bothered me. My go to speaker was the Meadowlark Kestrel for years. As I said though, I was always looking to find a speaker with the same basic character that also offered the resolution the Kestrels lacked.
    I ended up with a pair of Revel Performa M20s which gave me exactly what I was looking for. The M20 was my speaker for a long time until I found a deal on the Revel M22 which, to my ear, offers a similar sound, only better.
    All that said, I recommend you look at the Revel M106 which replaced the M22. The M106 is current production so you should be able to find them new. Not sure what they cost on your side of the pond. I know if I ever see a good deal on a pair I'm jumping on them.
     
  16. Mike-48

    Mike-48 A shadow of my former self

    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Dear @back2vinyl , you haven't said anything about the room and its acoustic properties. One thing about headphones is, they aren't affected by the room. Speakers are!
     
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  17. Andr3w D

    Andr3w D Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Michigan
    I am only just beginning this journey and every speaker put in front of me at local audiophile stores in my pretty pathetic price range was harsh to the point of annoying and fatiguing. After reading around I began to pick up on a couple brands that were seemingly out of my reach to try and listen to.. Harbeth, Fritz, Salk, Magnepan. Long story short, I got super lucky. After almost raising my budget to afford Maggie .7's with a bass panel, I found a used pair of Fritz MTM 251's for sale about 100 miles away from me ... simply put the drive to hear them was very worthwhile. I even spoke to Fritz about the pair ... now I just need the rest of the equipment to actually drive them.

    I would absolutely look at Fritz

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Erik Tracy

    Erik Tracy Meet me at the Green Dragon for an ale

    Location:
    San Diego, CA, USA
    Just another thought - maybe look on Polk's ebay direct site for a pair of older LSi7s or LSi9s which use the vifa ring tweeter for a more polite 'laid back' topend.

    I used to have the LSi7s - v. musical and not bright at all.

    The LSi9s will need proper amplification as they are a harder 4-ohm load, the LSi7s are an 'easy' 4-ohm load in comparison.
     
  19. That does actually work!! I have tried it to good effect in the past
     
  20. basie-fan

    basie-fan Forum Resident

    Yes they roll off above 15 kHz but I think the OP is bothered by the upper presence range 4-5 kHz. Fantastic speakers BTW (I own a pair) but these might not accomplish what the OP wants.
     
  21. ZenArcher

    ZenArcher Senior Member

    Location:
    Durham, NC
    I agree - brightness is not a result of high treble, it's too much upper midrange, 1-3 kHz or so.
     
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  22. tommytune

    tommytune Forum Resident

    Location:
    Iowa
    You are correct. After I made a cd of test tones I was surprised to find the harsh/brightness was around the 2K range. The Usher speakers I mentioned really soften the midrange harshness and have great bass and treble.
     
  23. tommytune

    tommytune Forum Resident

    Location:
    Iowa
    I would like to think my speakers have a flat response. I do not think they dip down in volume just to relieve the harsh/bright sound.
     
  24. showtaper

    showtaper Concert Hoarding Bastard

    I just got this far reading this thread and was wondering why no one suggested room treatments. You need to work on speaker placement and room treatments to see if it will help.
     
  25. Whatever you get don't judge till you've blasted them 75-100 hours. Maybe when you are auditioning, the speakers haven't been broke in yet. They rarely seem to be, so ask.
     
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