Standmount speakers for people who dislike any brightness?

Well, the thing is, as I said before, that Stereophile review is for the previous model of the SCM11 (straight walled cabinet) so I don't really trust it to apply to the current model (curved wall cabinets, new drivers I think, new crossover I think).

I don't feel the answer lies in bi-amping but may give it a try. I'm far more inclined to trust your original advice which was to try a pair of Parasound A23s!

 

The thing is, up till now, I've been trying to measure the frequency response of the amps and the sound coming out of the speakers - NOT a room EQ. To do a room EQ, I would use different software and take the measurements from the listening position. Maybe that's the next step but I wouldn't use the charts I've previously filed to gauge the room EQ because they weren't intended for that purpose.

 

ok. now you know both amps measure relatively flat.

measuring at the listening position will show you what you hear... i suspect that your speakers and listening position are not optimised.
if you experience serious suck out in the bass due to room modes, the sound may be bright. often rooms can have up to -20db suck out in the bass. if your system have such a dip at from 70hz to 120hz, well any speaker/amp combination will sound bright.

moving the speakers around and measuring at the listening position to reach the flattest bass response could be all you need to restore balance. Maybe your system is not bright, but lacks bass due to room problems.

I really dont recommend room eq. room correction, if even needed, should be done after optimizing the speaker and LP position.

 

Yes, I would say a23 helps a lot for my small speakers. But, if I am you, I will try anything that could possibly help.
Bi amp potential:
*reducing intermodulation distortion
*If there is a difficult load in the woofer, only the woofer amp suffer, the tweeter amp can still handle the high with less distortion

 

I'm with Murphy, after proving that the amps are doing what they said they would, I would run a measurement at your listening position to see that FR.

 

What strikes me is that the FR (Frequency Response) of the speaker/tube amp (orange dotted line) closely mirrors the speaker's impedance curve:

Courtesy Stereophile.

This is not unexpected given the low damping factor of most tube amps. The impedance curve will modulate the FR. It's also not surprising that the amplitude of the deviations decreased when going from the 8-ohm taps to the 4-ohm taps as this increases the amp's damping factor (and ability to control the speakers).

It seems though that the discussion has gotten bogged down around the FR or PR (power response, which is FR plus the room).

You were looking for an improvement in the sound around the 4 kHz nasty spot and if I understand correctly, you have heard no improvement? Do I have this right so far?

 

Thank you for the interesting observation about tube amps. At the same time, yes, I agree, this discussion has got a bit lost at this point, for which I take the blame.

I long since decided that my speakers weren't bright but that, in fact, the problem lay in a specific nasty spot at around 4 kHz, especially with vocals and strings. I speculated that it could be due to crossover distortion, hence the experiment with the tube amp, but it made no difference so that theory has collapsed. I also don't think it's room effects because I heard the same thing in the dealer's listening room and I also hear the same distortion at 4 kHz when listening to the same test tracks on the small speakers plugged into my desktop computer. The only time I don't hear this distortion is:

1. In any kind of live music.

2. When listening on my Audeze LCD-2 or Audeze LCD-4 headphones through any kind of amplifier, including the Realtek audio codec on a PC motherboard.

I still think it's likely that this is in fact a hearing defect, or at least a hearing over-sensitivity, and that the reason why I don't have a problem when using the Audeze headphones is because they happen to have a deep dip at 4 kHz. However, that doesn't explain why I don't get the same problem when listening to live music (eg I sing in a choir).

So at this point, I'm mystified. Maybe I'm allergic to cone speakers? I think my next step will be to go to a dealer with some Magnepan or Quad electrostats and see if they help.

 

ATCs are merciless. They are build to be merciless. Great recordings sound fabulous, bad sound bad. Sometimes very bad. I like the ups and downs, some don't.
I have the ATC SCM19 and experience no fatigue at all with a NAD M32. To me, that's a bold combination. Both the NAD and the speakers are truly analytical and transparent and many recordings disappoint. But when you hear a great recording, any kind of music, it's really amazing. I'll accept disappointments to experience that. By the way, speakers with muted trebels sound dull to me. No fun.

Soren

 

not because audeze headphones have a dip at 4khz that your ears on speakers are the same as your ears on
headphones.
the dip on headphone is there since the headphones bypasse some of the ear structure. speakers must be flat, headphones must have a dip from 2khz and many have a dip around 4khz.

can you please follow my advise and take a FR measurements of your speakers at your listening position

as some other users have said. ATC are a bit unforgiving. with my scm7v3 I use a eq to tame the treble a little. if you want a more forgiving sound, id satrt by getting a better amp then your Anthem. then likely look at your source as its another very ordinary DAC. to me bad DAC sounds a bit edgy.

 

One thing about room treatment is that it is super easy to suck out the high frequency.

 

well they must be absorbed in the early reflections
very easy to front the bass traps the kraft paper or plastic membrane to bring back the highs.
so not really to be honest, its not hard but very important to front the bass traps with a reflective membrane that brings back the high but still absorb bass.

 

For context, the thread is about speakers being too bright. You can tack up $150 worth of cheap foam sound treatment and kill the highs very effectively.

Tuned bass traps are great, and if you want to treat the whole room the low end is where to focus your energy, but for this thread, rolling off the highs is truly cheap and easy. That's my point.

 

OP, I agree with murphythecat that you should measure from your listening position too.

BTW, what is the dB of your test tone when you captured all those charts? Can you measure in a dB that is at your typical listening level? I am also curious that for those vocals that caused brightness issue, at what dB level was that?

Can you describe your room, where are the speakers located in relation to the room and to listening position? For example, your speakers is how far from the wall behind it and to the side wall? How far apart are the speakers? How many meter from your listening position as measured from the cone to your seat? My thought is that your room (may be your dealer's room too) might cause a null of freq between 100 to 200 Hz while in your listening position. Once you get those null fixed, the balance is back and the brightness will no longer bother you.

 

I think using room treatment can't specifically treat a certain freq. It might tame other high frequency too much.

May be OP can try a minidsp and use the eq plugin to control that specific 4k frequency?

 

so your point is to use room treatment? if so, I agree!
personally I find any untreated room sounds bad, no matter the speakers. to me, a untreated room is not high end., no matter how much money you have in the equipment

however, many things sounds wrong in OP setup, his amp is a Anthem more suited for HT then Hifi, then he use a very ordinary DAC which ime all sounds pretty etched and harsh. then he doesnt seem to be willing to find the best speaker and listening placement or show listening position measurements. then, based on the dip at 4khz based on his audeze and many other headphones, he thinks his problem frequency is at 4khz.

 

minidsp? for EQ? why not use a plugin? mini dsp do a ADC/DAC. useless in op setup.
ps: I have a minidsp. my test with it concluded that its not fully transparent.

 

I like to hear more about your tests on minidsp. Please continue our conversation in Combine speakers using active crossover? . Thanks!

As of now, I found that using minidsp do more good to my Paradigm than not. By relieving it from doing frequencies from 200 Hz and down, it really brings out the magic of my Paradigm.

 

oh its pretty transparent and if you use it to highpass your mains, the advantage may outgrow the disadvantage. but for op, buying a minidsp makes no sense if all he needs is eq. especially since minidsp eq is digital. he could probably do the same thing with a plugin

 

I thought he mentioned that using plugin helps. But, typically, plugin means he is attached to a computer all the time. If he tries minidsp and likes it enough, then he can remove computer out of his chain if he wishes.

 

Can the MiniDSP be inserted between a source and an integrated amp? It doesn't appear that way from its manual but folks have alluded to this.

 

the minidsp idea is not what id recommend.

OP, Ive went to my GF place. this is where we have setup the atc scm7v3 powered by a marantz 2238b.
to my ears, I find the sound a bit forward in the midrange. the treble sound super nice to me, but something in the midrange sounds forward. Ive played with the tone control on the marantz 2238b and I find that the scm7v3 sounds much better with about -3/4db in the midrange tone control. (the 2238 have a tone control for bass/mid/highs). taming down the treble tone control didnt help remove the problems I heard in the mid. so perhaps the problem you hear is more centered around 1khz?

ive looked at the 2238b manual to find the exact midrange tone control FREQ range but I cant find exactly what freq the mid tone control on the 2238b operate at :S

I know you use the scm11 v2, which use the same tweeter. imo the tweeter sounds very good without any brightness or serious harshness. but something in the mid seem forward and make the sound a bit forward. maybe the scm11 exhibit the same problem.

hope that helps

 

I don't think we know what the problem is yet. For all we know, the OP is sitting on a couple very wide bass nulls that are making him think that the treble is the problem. The close miked measurements have really only proven what was already published about the speakers and the amps. They haven't shown us what he's hearing.

 

yep
op, please take measurements of each speaker separately with the mic placed at the listening position.