Star Wars (1977) original Blu ray. Crappier than ever.

Not that I'm aware, at the moment. A monthly pass to a newsreader/group is not terribly expensive.

Did anyone else get a chance to watch yet? I watched it again last night ) Kinda skipped around some, but the opening scene is still blowing my mind. The colors (C3PO finally looks the correct shade of gold, he's not copper!) and amount of grain is just perfect.

 

I don’t anything about newsgroups, but it’s up on MySpleen which is free. You just need an invitation to join.

 

Actually, the original 35mm camera negatives (OCN) have not been altered per se... they were scanned and only the digital 2K images were altered. All the 35mm trims and pieces still exist in the vault, but there were a few cases (I'm guessing less than 100) where one frame was damaged to the point where there might have to be reconstruction and heavy restoration. This is par for the course for any 40-year-old film, particularly when splices start falling apart. The other negatives were in much better shape. I suspect for restoration purposes they would most likely scan all the negatives, all the trims, plus a couple of IPs just as a backup and as reference. And they would definitely scan an original unscathed 1977 print just to use as a reference in terms of the conform. An original Technicolor IB print would be at least a generation down from the OCN, and the print is never going to have nearly the detail of the camera original.

Dennis Muren was part of the process and I was thrilled to meet and talk to him about half an hour during the remastering sessions. I might have been more jazzed to meet him than Lucas himself, kind of a "WHOA!" moment.

I wasn't happy that a stock Spirit was used for the 2003-2004 scans, and my preference would've been for a pin-registered Arriscanner or a Northlight scanner (and scan at 4K and downrez to 2K). But they were already almost 1/3 through the project when I got thrown into it, so the horses had already left the barn. Nowadays, I'm very certain they'd do a 16-bit 4K scan of the O-neg and do 99% of the work from that. I don't think the 4K will make any difference: because DP Gil Taylor used a lot of diffusion throughout the 1976 production, the entire original Star Wars is really soft, plus they used anamorphic glass on the first three films. But you can always make a case that at least if the restoration is done in 4K, nobody can complain that enough wasn't done to preserve all possible detail.

 

Are you positive about the negatives not being physically altered? I've always heard, and from official sources too, that the three OCN's were fully restored (with the main bulk of the work by far going on the badly-deteriorated '77 film) then physically re-spliced to conform to the Special Edition versions. One or two questions, if I may;

1) Does that mean that the restored negatives are still essentially the original theatrical versions, minus the removed trims that were replaced for reasons of both damage and being supplanted by SE footage?

2) If the restored negatives were given 2K scans and then altered in the digital realm, as you say, doesn't that mean those initial scans of the negatives (in their original states) are still in existence - in the case of the '77 film, it could very well be the source used for the footage in the Empire of Dreams documentary and the spliced-in opening scroll to the theatrical version released on DVD in 2006 - and could be remastered and re-released... or was it those actual scans that were altered?

3) If there were to be any theatrical versions re-release, surely the bulk of the work has already been done with the restoration of the aforementioned negatives, and all that would be required would be to scan both them and relevant trims/replacement frames as needed at 4K, create a brand new digital negative, clean up and re-composite some shots as needed, give it a new color timing, and et voila... no? That surely wouldn't take six months and millions of dollars per film, I'm sure...

Frankly, I'm more than a little confused and bewildered about the whole sorry OT negatives saga; I hear one story from one source (the negatives have been physically altered!), I hear another from another source (no they haven't!)... I don't know what to think anymore. This all could have been avoided if Lucas had scanned the restored negatives and archived them for posterity before their being altered (physically or otherwise), whilst continuing to work on his 'revised' versions for release... that way, we would have those culturally and historically significant works permanently preserved for future generations, maybe not in full 4K, but they would exist, alas...

 

Just for reference, this email has been making the rounds online for some time:

 

Yeah, I read that a while ago... that's what I always heard from multiple sources; that Lucas had physically altered the camera negatives to the Special Editions, thus when he said the theatrical versions didn't exist anymore, he was telling the truth... from a certain point of view.

 

Okay, after a bit of research, I think I've got a grasp on what went down with the mid-1990's restoration and what sources were used for subsequent releases;

*The original camera negative for Star Wars (which was was shot on four different film stocks) was disassembled, washed frame by frame, and reassembled by Robert Hart in 1995.

* A brand new interpositive print was struck from this restored O-neg, which Rick McCallum described as "perfect" in a 1997 interview - Rick McCallum - the new IP print is then disassembled.

* Shots featuring optical composites on the O-neg are removed, scanned at 2K, re-composited, printed back onto film, and inserted into the IP print.

* Shots featuring wipes/dissolves were given back to Pacific Title, who re-did them at a higher resolution than was achievable in 1977, scanned at 2K, printed back to film, and re-inserted into the IP.

* Frames of the new IP print that contain damaged or deteriorated footage are removed. Equivalent frames were taken from Eastern European 35mm prints (being as they had been created much more recently), scanned in 2K, cleaned up, printed back onto film, and inserted into the relevant portions of the IP. In total, 748 out of 2, 228 shots overall in the film were altered for the Special Edition of Star Wars.

* The undamaged parts of the new IP are then converted into a new master internegative print. The re-composited footage plus the cleaned-up footage sourced from Eastern European prints are likewise then inserted into this new IN master print, which is the source for the theatrical prints used in the 1997 theatrical re-release.

* According to an article by Matt Hurwitz in trade periodical Videography (dated September 1, 2004), this IN print was the source for both the 2004 DVD and 2011 Blu ray remastering/re-releases. The scans for those releases happened because of, owing to limitations of technology back in the mid-1990's, there were evident color shifts (thanks to the degraded O-neg) in Star Wars that they couldn't correct at the time through photo-chemical timing... by 2003-04, they could, and thus new digital scans were made of the IN.

* The O-negs for both Empire and Jedi were in substantially better condition, and in fact, weren't even used for the Special Editions at all; those were sourced from first-generation IP prints.

So if all of that is even remotely accurate, as Vidiot has pointed out, the original camera negatives haven't been physically altered, and could, in theory, along with trims and other film elements, be given a fresh scan and remastering; probably at 4K then downres'd to 2K, as at a higher resolution, the shift in overall picture quality between normal shots and optical composite shots would be too noticeable, owing to the degradation of some of the original composite elements, mainly on Star Wars, the composite elements on the two sequels were much better preserved and in much better condition overall.

There's clearly a way for an OT theatrical version restoration and re-release, there just isn't the will for it at present with Kathleen Kennedy... very odd indeed that a major conglomerate like Disney is seemingly leaving serious coin (and a LOT of fan goodwill) lying on the table... one would think they are not averse to making money these days by whatever means necessary... and the theatricals would certainly make some serious coin if released, that's for darn sure!!!

 

Don't Disney only have the last two and Fox still owns the first until 2020 or something? So they could be waiting until 2020 or maybe until the Fox deal goes through.

 

Like Jim B suggests, I don't think it's a lack of will or interest on the part of LFL; I think there are other forces at play here-- maybe copyright issues with Fox, or maybe explicit instructions from George himself as a precondition to selling his company. We don't know what we don't know, as Donald Rumsfeld might suggest.

 

FOX paid for and distributed Star Wars in 1977, so own it lock, stock, and barrel in perpetuity. They own the distribution rights to Empire, Jedi, and the prequels - all of which were financed by Lucas himself but distributed by FOX - until May 2020, after which, those rights revert to Disney.

According to sources in the know, there is NOT any clause that precludes Lucasfilm/Disney from reissuing the theatricals should they wish to... it's Kathleen Kennedy being respectful to George Lucas that's the stumbling block at present... it's loyalty not legality that's holding up the theatricals' re-release. When Lucas sold to the Mouse House, he sold it ALL, including his right to influence or intervene in future creative endeavors... Disney made darn sure of that... with a $4bn price tag attached, wouldn't you???

 

Only a few people know the truth, but from what is being told in the Star Wars fanbase, The Hemit is wrong and George Lucas specifically went out of his way to make the original footage erased, so that only his Special Editions would survive in high quality. It was mentioned recently by somebody who worked on this for Disney and they do have the unaltered footage still stored somewhere in bits and pieces, but it would be a problem to put everything together in professional quality at 4K nowadays. It's basically way too late now.

 

Thank god for the fan restorations.

The last time I watched an official release of the original trilogy was on VHS tape. Pre-Special Edition, of course.

 

Yeah, for real... I don't know what happened with George Lucas, but those Special Editions are just horrible. The things they were trying to fix only ended up making the whole movie worse and the image quality is really sub-par when you consider the importance of the franchise and the wallet of George Lucas.

 

Search out the 4K77 edition, and be prepared to smile for several days after watching

 

Thanks! I was pretty darn happy with the most recent Harmy edition, which I most recently watched with the mono soundtrack! I understand the 4K77 edition is even more of a purists delight, though.

 

I've been in denial for decades now, lucky for me I've always had access to a more-or-less state-of-the-art copy of the OOT. When I stop and think about the reality though it truly is sad that most people going forward will only experience the Special Editions.

 

I found this 10 minute restoration video rather fascinating.

 

I wonder if thats why he sold it??

 

I'm on you with this, an state of the art 4K (even 8K) 16 bit transfer would be the way to go for archival purposes, but for home video even a well done 2K DI can look great. Two of my greatest looking and reference UHD BD discs are Prometheus and Alien Covenant, theu look outstanding on my 55" 4K HDR Samsung set yet they come from a 2K DI upconverted for UHD BD release. Numbers are nothing without artistry and well know how.

 

That is not true and I was there at ILM for months, and I had the actual o-neg in my hands in 2004. (Well... some of it.) Lucas would never "erase" any of his original movies, but he would most likely say, "if they asked me what I wanted, I'd prefer only the most recent versions of my films to be released." I don't think history or nostalgia matters that much to Lucas, and I understand that -- even if I don't agree with that. But it ain't my movie. I already stated if it were up to me, I'd say release the final George Lucas-altered versions, but also provide a pristine copy of the original theatrical versions as separate discs, and make the whole thing a boxed set. Everybody wins, and people get to choose what they want. (And everybody has to buy it all over again.)

A lot of people seem to think they and only they know what's going on with these films, but nobody has really talked to Lucas or Kathy Kennedy or anybody actually involved with the films. It's just fans making crap up to feed into their obsession. I would bet most of the decisions tie more into money and scheduling than anything else. The eventual sale of Fox will have a big effect on the outcome: if Comcast winds up owning them, Disney will go nuts at not only losing access to Fox's vast library, but also being prevented from having all of Star Wars under one roof, along with the X-Men and Fantastic Four characters:

Comcast Confirms Plan To Counter Disney With Richer, All-Cash Offer For Fox

Naw, it's never too late. I know of "lost" films from the 1920s that have only been rediscovered in the last 10 years that are finally being restored. As long as they have the time and money, it can all be put back together. I've done some tough restorations: as one example, we did Phantom of the Paradise from A/B negatives, and I had to personally dive in and recreate a lot of those goofy opticals and transitions. This was really painstaking work, but I love the movie and was really gratified that it came out as well as it did. It was only a 2K restoration, but it's the best the film ever looked. We matched the size and position to a fairly-pristine studio print, and it worked out well.

Even if you had to do it one shot at a time or piece Star Wars together from wildly different elements -- from OCN and from IP (interpostive), as I said earlier in the thread -- it's possible to match it all and make the differences undetectable. All of this will far greater than any so-called fan restoration, because the toolsets available to pros are better. But again, I would say the original Star Wars would be a 7-figure restoration, and no matter the importance, numbers that high make studio accountants hesitate.

 

Except he did. He also refused to give the original reels for preservation to the Library of Congress. Only the Special Editions are there. What Lucasfim preserved are the cut parts, but they're pretty much scraps.

Note: the Library of Congress does have a 35mm print of Star Wars, but it's what was filed in 1978 as part of the movie’s copyright deposit. It's in terrible shape by now. The registry, where films are meant to be preserved, was refused the original version by Lucas. Besides, fans have 35mm prints as well from closed-down cinemas. We're talking about a pristine copy for a professional 4K transfer. That is lost by now because George Lucas wanted it that way after he became... like today.

 

Well actually, the Library of Congress flatly declined the Special Edition because it wasn't the original version as released in 1977; Star Wars was inducted into that list on it's first year (1989), but it wasn't until around 1994 or thereabouts that they actually requested a copy of it, George Lucas continuously delayed in giving them one because of "ongoing restoration work" and when he did finally offer them the aforementioned revised version, they rightly said no.

All of the cut pieces from the Star Wars O-neg that were removed during the restoration work in the mid-1990's were preserved and kept, nothing has been lost, and everything could be restored (via a new digital negative rather than physically re-splicing the original negative for a third time) if the will was there from Kathy Kennedy, who stated publicly she "wouldn't dream of tampering with George's vision of those films"... which means no theatrical versions in the foreseeable future, alas.

You have to bear in mind that with regards talk about the restoration of the OT negatives, we're primarily talking about the one for the 1977 film, the negatives for both Empire and Jedi were kept in really good condition, and supposedly weren't even used for the Special Editions (the cost of scanning an entire film in the mid-1990's was prohibitive to say the least, so they were sourced from existing first-generation IP prints, whilst the '77 film was necessarily sourced from a brand new IP struck from the restored negative), so both could be theoretically scanned and remastered anytime. The 1977 film's O-neg and cut pieces would need to be re-scanned, and the people doing such work would need to decide if optical shots needed costly re-compositing or if they can just get a good copy of them from secondary 35mm sources, which would be eminently doable.

If you want a full 4K restoration, go to the negatives, but that would require some reconstruction work on the '77 film and that would take time, and time equals $$$, would the powers-that-be want to spend money on it? But an exceptional 2K transfer could be made from already existing prints without need of further costly restoration work to or comprehensive scanning of the original negatives, and considering that those films would likely be better presented in the latter resolution anyway (mainly because of the extensive optical composite work throughout), I'd go with that option... ultimately, it all comes down to the will at Lucasfilm for such a project, and how much (in both man hours and moolah) they want to spend on it.

And at the moment, there exists no will for any further expenditure on those versions... until that changes, it's a dead issue.

 

They said no many times and George Lucas said no even more times. In the end, they had to take the Special Editions. STAR WARS

Yeah, they have those cuts, but they weren't professionally prepared for a digital remaster and they don't have a full reel anymore, so now a) the cuts degraded b) it would have to be pieced together from various sources, basically.

They lost the chance to do a professional HD transfer back when the unaltered films were in a much better shape. By choice, sadly. George Lucas did this on purpose, so that you couldn't simply take a full reel of the old version in pristine condition. There are direct quotes from him where he admits to being glad that all analogue sources of the original unaltered trilogy will degrade beyond saving in 20-30 years, so that only his "definite" versions exist.

 

Yes, it's listed in the Library of Congress but they do not have a physical copy of it in their archives... they don't have one of Empire either, and that was added to the list eight years ago.

On the other matter;

Firstly; they didn't have the workable technology for HD transfers in the mid-1990's when Star Wars was given it's restoration, the most they could handle back then was 2K at best, and even then, only pieces of the original negative were digitally scanned, specifically those containing optical composite work that needed restoring, rather than the film in it's entirety because of the prohibitive cost of such at that time; the Special Editions were all photo-chemically timed back then from IP prints.

Secondly; the negatives of Empire and Jedi are still in great condition, were not used for the Special Editions, and could be given brand new HD transfers any time.

Thirdly; every piece of the O-neg cut from Star Wars has been preserved and could be retrieved, scanned, re-composited as needed, and reinserted back into the film to create the original theatrical version, Lucas didn't physically destroy anything, as you've implied he did.

Fourthly; I don't believe a word that George Lucas says when it comes to the issue of the theatrical versions' existence (his agenda to erase the theatrical versions from the marketplace is both clearly obvious and obviously longstanding)... case in point being when he said there was no better source for the sub-par presentation of the theatrical versions on the 2006 DVD's than the 1993 Laserdisc transfers; we know that's a lie because a) noted film restorationist Robert A. Harris stated he knew personally of 35mm material that could be used and offered his services to Lucasfilm (to no avail, unsurprisingly), b) Lucas' own former VP Jim Ward pleaded with his boss to treat the fans right and release the theatrical versions as they were wanting, he wouldn't have been able to make that plea if he knew they no longer existed in physical form, and c) both the footage of the 1977 film as shown in the 2004 DVD documentary Empire of Dreams and the opening shot on the 1977 film's theatrical 2006 DVD release - without the Episode number and subtitle, both of which the Laserdisc transfer had - is that of the original pre-1981 re-release (when the Episode number and subtitle were added) theatrical version... in anamorphic presentation for 16:9 screens and looking largely pristine (apart from some minor scratches and dirt)... where did THAT footage come from???

The whole sorry matter is unnecessarily complicated and convoluted... and only one person is to blame for that; something to which you and I would agree upon.

 

False.

In other words, LoC was given the Special Editions, but they kept asking for the originals and didn't get them. Now they technically have A New Hope, but it's the 1997 altered version print, so they don't consider it the right one.