Star Wars: Episode VIII (The Last Jedi) - SPOILERS POSSIBLE*

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by MLutthans, Nov 10, 2015.

  1. Jim B.

    Jim B. Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Apparently it seems the low audience rating on Rotten Tomatoes is partly down to some right wing butter organising a campaign against the film as it featured women and possibly gay people.
    He was doing the same with Black Panther but has been rumbled, presumably as that film stars black people.
     
  2. NickCarraway

    NickCarraway Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Gastonia, NC
    1. That allegation came out before Christmas.
    2. If you took a poll in this thread do you think the outcome would be closer to the critics' 93% fresh or the audience's 55%?
     
  3. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Anybody who thinks this forum is representative of the general public is already proceeding from a faulty assumption.

    For starters, around 51% of the US population is female. What do you think the percentage is here?
     
    Lownote30 likes this.
  4. mpayan

    mpayan Forum Resident

    Wow, so this is what Star Wars has become..?

    No thanks.
     
  5. delmonaco

    delmonaco Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    Actually the audience score as of now is 48 % (critics - 91 %). I wonder for what purpose "some right wing butter" (as Jim B. said) would be so dedicated and persistent to undermine the audience score by "organizing a campaign"for month already? Is there any proof for such a conspiracy? And what they could possibly achieve by doing this?
     
  6. Jim B.

    Jim B. Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    We have a poll. Its 65%.
     
  7. Jim B.

    Jim B. Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Proof? It's a fact. Facebook have removed his Black Panther group.

    He's a member of the US 'alt right' - some scumbag that thinks films should just be about white men.
     
    sunspot42 likes this.
  8. delmonaco

    delmonaco Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    Well, I really don't know anything about this group. If they are the main reason for the low audience score, they have to be still very active, because the score continue to fall. Is really Rotten tomatoes became such a social/political arena and why? (I don't have deep knowledge how their system works and what is the importance and impact of a low audience score).
     
  9. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    The alt-Right was also predicting Rogue One to be a flop, objecting to the heroes being of diverse ethnic backgrounds while the main antagonist was white. But I don't know if they took active steps to sabotage scores the way they claim they did with The Last Jedi.
     
    sunspot42 likes this.
  10. jeroemba

    jeroemba Active Member

    Location:
    France
  11. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
  12. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    Financial impact to Disney if the negative audience score steers people away from seeing the movie.
     
    Jim B. likes this.
  13. Chazro

    Chazro Forum Resident

    Location:
    West Palm Bch, Fl.
    Saw this last night, what a disappointment! Yet ANOTHER example of "what were they thinking" Hollywood movie-making. Did anyone involved with this project believe that this one was as good as the last? Forget about actually being better. And if they can see what so clearly is right in front of their faces, why release it? It actually saddened me!
     
  14. Squealy

    Squealy Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Vancouver
    A guy on twitter did his impression of the internet watching The Empire Strikes Back in 1980:

    
@patrickhwillems
 Watching The Empire Strikes Back and wow all this comedy with C-3PO while Luke is almost dying is so out of place. Irvin Kershner ruined Star Wars.


    @patrickhwillems
 Ugh and now Han and Leia are basically in a romantic comedy. Get this corny “humor” out of Star Wars.


    @patrickhwillems
 Luke has telekinesis now???? Way to break the whole mythology.


    @patrickhwillems
 So that giant asteroid worm can breathe in space? It should’ve died in seconds. Good to know this movie doesn’t care about physics AT ALL.


    @patrickhwillems
 Jesus I’m waiting for Luke to find the badass Jedi master and there’s just these endless scenes of a dumb muppet stealing his food. Did he land on ****ing Sesame Street?


    @patrickhwillems
 Wait, Darth Vader, ultimate badass villain, is just a lackey to some crusty old dude? Does this old dude even have a name??? Where did he come from?


    @patrickhwillems
 How are these TIE Fighters dropping bombs when THERE’S NO GRAVITY IN SPACE??????


    @patrickhwillems
 My boy Han Solo FINALLY gets some action and then it’s ruined with more 3PO comedy like it’s suddenly a god damn Inspector Clouseau movie


    @patrickhwillems
 Luke is on some kind of vision quest in a haunted cave? How many times can one movie break its own mythology?


    @patrickhwillems
 Oh sure you’re telling me a Star Destroyer has no cameras or anything to detect a whole spaceship just sitting on its surface? No one’s gonna look out a damn window and see it?


    @patrickhwillems
 What’s with the dumb subplot where Vader keeps murdering his admirals? The Imperial army is suddenly a wacky comedy routine and they expect us to take them seriously?


    @patrickhwillems
 Isn’t this series supposed to be about a war? This whole movie is about hanging out in a swamp or going on a road trip. What’s the whole Rebel army doing? Shouldn’t they be trying to, like, win?


    @patrickhwillems
 Vader can just deflect blaster shots with his hand??? Why does he even need a lightsaber? Are they just making up new powers as they go?


    @patrickhwillems
 And now Luke can just HEAR his friends from across the galaxy? So the Force is basically a psychic radio?


    @patrickhwillems
 Yoda: “Don’t go, it’s a trap.” Luke: “I’m gonna go.” Leia: “Luke stop it’s a trap!” Luke: *keeps going* How do they expect us to root for a protagonist this stupid? All suspension of disbelief: gone


    @patrickhwillems
 Two days of training and Luke is suddenly a better fighter than Ben Kenobi ‪#lackofconsistency

    @patrickhwillems
 Wow so that movie went nowhere, they got rid of the best character, and the mythology makes no sense now. **** Irvin Kershner and Lawrence Kasdan. Please sign my petition to have The Empire Strikes Back removed from canon.
     
    artfromtex, DLeet, Binni and 7 others like this.
  15. delmonaco

    delmonaco Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    This guy is trying too hard, but is not very convincing or funny. But he's on par with the forced humour of TLJ.
     
  16. DLeet

    DLeet Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chernigov, Ukraine
    pretty much why I've never taken Star Wars seriously and why I keep being amazed that others do, very much so.
     
  17. Jim B.

    Jim B. Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    You're just trolling on this thread now. We get you don't like it.
     
    sunspot42 likes this.
  18. Jim B.

    Jim B. Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Lol. I get you don't appreciate how good the film is but do you really think they would just not release it?

    I think it's a much better film than TFA, far more original, took chances and was unpredictable. I liked TFA but it was really retelling the original films with a new cast.
     
    sunspot42 likes this.
  19. delmonaco

    delmonaco Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    It's not an appreciation thread. We also get that you like it, which doesn't mean that you have to stop posting.
     
  20. delmonaco

    delmonaco Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    I saw TLJ four times already – second time to try to figure out if I was drunk or hallucinating the first time; third time to give myself one more chance to find some sense (I didn’t), and one more time, just completely ignoring the plot and happily enjoying the visual aspect/sound (the movie is stunning in this regard, IMO)

    No matter how many weaknesses and plot holes one can find in the OT and the prequels, TLJ is another league completely. As a standalone story it lacks everything – general idea, plot, good structure (setup-action-climax), and character development. As a part of a big saga with 40 years of history it also lacks everything – it’s disjointed from the big picture, it goes against fundamental settings/ideas/direction of already established franchise, discarding them without even replacing them with anything new that makes sense. I don’t understand the people who praise this movie as something bold, original and challenging. For sure there’s nothing challenging for the script writer – everyone who can finish a sentence is able to write this kind of plot – Rian Jones himself admitted what was his “creative” approach – to check all fan theories about the important aspects of this 8th installment, and to do something that nobody thought of. And because the fans had exhausted all possible variations, he simply decided to do nothing – to leave/ignore everything that the previous episode established and hinted, to easily get rid of some characters that were set to be important / interesting, instead of exploring them; to “hibernate” the main characters – Rey is exactly the same at the end of TLJ as we left her in TFA – no development, she’s the same one-dimensional, powerful good force master (mistress?), she can do everything better than anyone without any explanation how this is possible, etc. Same with Kylo – he’s still the same bad guy with some sort of bipolar disorder, Finn, Poe, Hux – they are all the same, one dimensional, cartoonish character with zero development.

    Is this movie bold and challenging to the audience? In a sense that it’s so complex, original and intellectually overwhelming that is above the level for the average fan? I don’t think so. Sometimes people can’t understand something simply because it doesn’t make any sense, and not because it’s too complex, challenging and sophisticated.
     
  21. Encuentro

    Encuentro Forum Resident

    It is a bold and challenging film in the sense that it challenged audience's expectations. This is one reason that some fans didn't like it. They spent two years debating issues that they invented in forums and Facebook groups. These issues didn't exist. The identity of Rey's parents really wasn't an issue in The Force Awakens. The question of their identity was never raised. The only question that was raised was whether or not they were coming back. Some fans inferred that Rey's parents were established characters. The door may have been left open for that possibility, but it was never implied. The same holds true for Snoke. Fans spent two years debating his identity. The question of his identity was never raised in the first film. Rian Johnson took the bold approach of taking some fans expectations and throwing them back in their faces. Good for him!

    Rey's character arc developed significantly by the end of The Last Jedi. You're missing the big picture based on the expectations that you and other fans invented for her arc. You and others assumed that she was related to established characters. She is not. The character arc that developed from that revelation is that she is on her own. She no longer has to look to some non-existent lineage to find her importance. Her destiny is not determined by her bloodline. She is free to find her destiny on her own terms. She is a much stronger character as a result.

    Kylon Renn's character arc has developed significantly as well. Much like Rey, he has been freed of something that was impeding his development. He is free of the reigns that were held by Snoke. He is free to determine his own fate and destiny. He is a much deeper and more nuanced character as demonstrated by his numerous interactions with Rey. Even some crititcs of this film have pointed to his interactions with Rey and to Kylo himself as strengths in a film that they otherwise didn't like.

    You must have watched this film in an alternate universe. Everything about the film makes perfect sense. What are you missing?
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  22. delmonaco

    delmonaco Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    The audience's expectations were that something important have to happen in the new episode, based on what was set in TFA, and the newly introduced characters will be explored/developed. So yes, in this regard Johnson managed to challenge these expectations very successfully indeed.

    The identity of Rey was set as the most important mystery and was the main base of the TFA plot. The important parents theory was just one of the many possible explanations about the extraordinary abilities she suddenly possessed and all other references that for some reason she's very special, Rey is the main protagonist in TFA and TLJ, like Luke was in the OT and Anakin in the prequels. But unlike them, for two full episodes we don't know anything about her, except that she's very cute, noble, good and powerful. She's not a strong character because she is the main character, and by all rules of drama the main character cannot be so one dimensional and without purpose and well set motivation. And the fact that Johnson didn't elaborate on her character and the origins of her unique force talents, and simply killed Snoke and Phasma in a rush is not a bold challenge, but lazy script writing and lack of any original ideas what meaningful to make out of these personages. Instead, he presented few more new characters, that are completely useless.

    I don't agree that Kylo developed much. He's free from Snoke but what difference does it makes? At the end of TLJ he's exactly the same person as in the beginning of TFA.
     
    valvehead likes this.
  23. Encuentro

    Encuentro Forum Resident

    This is going to be my last tit for tat on these particular points. Something important did happen in The Last Jedi. Rey found out who she is and that her destiny is not tied to a bloodline. You may not like that particular plot point, but I, and many others, do. The theme that one can come from meager beginnings and can actually choose to be somebody important is a far more powerful message than one inheriting importance. That is what some fans are disgruntled about. She didn't inherit her importance. Good! Screw royalty! That's the message. Rey inheriting importance would have been allegorical to inheriting the crown. But she isn't royalty. She's special, because she may be innately talented. We don't know yet, as this is not a duology. It is a trilogy, and it is absurd to expect every plot point to be resolved by the end of the second film. Otherwise, why make a third film? And she is special, because she chooses to be somebody. This message, as has been pointed out several times, goes hand in hand with the message of the stable boy. You are not bound by your past. Your past does not define your future.

    Rey one-dimensional? Hardly. She is character on a quest to find her "place in all of this." This quest to find out who she is is fraught with emotion as the character demonstrates several times throughout the film. She is desperate, like many fans, to find her own identity in the identity of others. As Kylo correctly points out, she is looking for someone to give her the identity she is seeking. First it was Han Solo, then Luke. But crucial to her development, she discovers, and we discover, that her sense of identity is not tied to those characters. Her sense of identity cannot be inherited. It cannot be handed to her on a silver platter. She has to develop it herself. She has to find her own "place in all of this."

    Klyo has traveled a great distance since his introduction in the first film. He is a far more nuanced character. Over the course of the film, we see a character that has been transformed into someone who is willing to, literally and figuratively, reach out to Rey, a character on the opposite side of the philosophical spectrum in matters of light and dark, good and evil. He forges an emotional bond with Rey, something that is important to the development of both characters. We see a character that went from killing his father in the first film to a character who can't bring himself to kill his mother in the second film. No, Kylo is not the same character as he was at the end of the first film.
     
  24. mcre01

    mcre01 Member

    Location:
    Leeds, UK
    It's mildly amusing read this thread. For my part I didn't like it cos I just thought it was a poor film - emotionally very cold. It falls into the trap of a lot of modern blockbusters - looks great and the visual effects look amazing but they forget to tell an engaging story. I'm sure people who liked the film saw it differently and that's great but quite frankly every character in that film could have died and I wouldn't have cared. And normally I'm the biggest softie going when watching films. Has it ruined Star Wars or my childhood certainly not. I can watch the original trilogy anytime and forget that TLJ exists.
     
    valvehead likes this.
  25. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    Best Buy's sales flyer this week claims 3/27 as the release date for home video versions.
     
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