Star Wars: Episode VIII (The Last Jedi) - SPOILERS POSSIBLE*

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by MLutthans, Nov 10, 2015.

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  1. Rhett

    Rhett Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cool City
    Did you you guys see some guy on YT is re-editing TLJ?
    He's going to make it NOT suck hard.

    Ivan Ortega
     
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  2. Song4U

    Song4U Senior Member

    Location:
    South Florida
    Thanks for the link, I also watch the one where he edited out Leia's flying scene. He actually has a good point in that video about the music and how important music is to a specific scene. For example the scene of General Hux and when he added some additional strings which built up the scene and made it more intense and sinister, it make Hux appears more sinister and evil something that was lacking in the original. Sometimes just a few seconds can make a big difference. I also liked how he made subtle changes to the music when Leia had been sucked out and how the Poe and the others looked out and saw her, it was a much greater impact with the music, made me feel it more all without actually having to witness Leia in space. It makes for great discussion.
     
  3. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    I'll be definitely interested in Ivan Ortega's edited version for sure, because he has some interesting ideas and some good ones. However, one thing i don't support is retroactively making Rey Obi-wan's offspring and changing the ending drastically.His edit isn't just fixing problems with execution and pacing, but making things the way he wants them and how he personally thinks the story should have turned out. It's his right to do so I guess because it's his project, but once you do that it simply isn't the story that was intended and therefore NOT The Last Jedi.

    My issues with TLJ wasn't the story it was telling in terms of where everyone ends up and Luke's arc ( which i found powerful and far more satisfying than if he came back in this one as "Obi-Wan but freakishly powerful" as a lot of the groucing fans seem to have wanted) , but some of the pacing and execution, and the choices in terms of what scenes to keep( the Fathier chase and Canto Bight in general) and which to cut ( anything cut from Luke and Rey and Kylo). The story and the intent were strong. The performances were great. The visuals were fantastic. It was in the execution and editing that it falls a bit apart.

    What id eventually like to see is not a cut to satisfy the fanboys/girls, I.E. dramatically altering the story told so that it sates the wishes and fan theories of fan boys,but one that keeps the general overall and intent of the story told intact as is, yet makes changes that fixes execution problems and improves pacing and tone.

    For example, perhaps rather than making us watch the fathier chase for what felt like 10 minutes, or Luke milking a sea cow( which i didn't think was the end of the world ,but it should have been a deleted scene) we keep all of the Luke,Rey and Kylo interactions.That's the meat of the story. None of that should have been cut.

    Perhaps rather than having is see Leia float in a pose like Mary Poppins, find a way to sell the same concept but without that poor execution choice. Little things like that, maybe reordering some scenes and trimming a bit here and there. Keep the story intact and keep the themes and outcomes, but tightening it up and refocusing it a bit.

    Rian Johnson had a great story to tell. It is a great story. It just needed some help in the execution. Sort of like George Lucas in a way and his Star Wars movies. The original after all was " saved" in the edit.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
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  4. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

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    I keep going back to my thinking that if you cut the scene where Luke milks the Thala-Siren, and the spearfishing scene, then you'd lose a bit of local color. You'd also lose any sense of how far off the grid Luke has placed himself. And the Pitchfork Brigade would then complain about how he couldn't sustain himself on an island for years with no obvious food source.
     
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  5. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

    Location:
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    Luke's subplot has a problem, but it's neither milking nor fishing.

    It just goes against his character. He would never do any of those things TLJ tells us he did. It's just absurd to expect people who love this character to suddenly erase all of his personality and pretend the new creators are right. No, they are wrong.
     
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  6. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    Luray, Virginia
    I think the spearfishing scene would have been enough to convey that, and i haven't seen much negative reaction to that scene, just the milking scene.

    No matter what was done the pitchfork brigade was never going to be happy anyway, so to consider their feelings is pointless. However, when the argument is " they had the time to show Luke milking the Talia siren, but no time to show the beat where Luke takes a moment of contemplation after Rey and Chewie just told him his best friend and brother and law was murdered by the nephew he lost to the dark side."...they have a point.

    Truth is both should have been kept. As i said any scene involving Luke, Rey and Kylo and their story and interactions should have been kept in their complete form. That core triangle is the meat of your movie and the driving thrust of the narrative. Things like portions of Canto Bight and a sliver or two of the whole mutiny subplot could and should have been cut or reordered a bit. I mean, did we really need fathier hijinks and a 5 minute CGI sequence that easily could have been sliced out and not affected the rest of the movie?
     
  7. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    So...let me ask you something. Given the circumstances that what went down with Ben Solo, what Luke Skywalker would have done?

    And " i don't know...but i know he wouldn't do what he did in the Last Jedi!" is not a valid answer. Since you are an expert on the character, i want you to tell us in detail, given the circumstances of what we know ( Ben was troubled and compromised from the start, Snoke's manipulations etc) what the " real" Luke would have done. Not how you think it should have happened or what you wished would have happened. Strictly based on your obvious large and in depth knowledge of what makes Luke Skywalker tick and who he is, i would like to hear your thoughts.
     
  8. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

    Location:
    Void
    Ben Solo is a nonsensical character thrown into the movie to have some sort of an amalgamation of Darth Vader and Severus Snape. Luke Skywalker would never train such a looser to begin with. Hell, Leia and Han would never have such a failure as a son to begin with.

    However, assuming Ben Solo is legit, Luke would never try to kill him out of "fear". If Ben Solo destroyed that hut for whatever reason, Luke would not sleep under the debris while Ben Solo slaughter his other students and burned his school. Even if that school was destroyed in a struggle, Luke would not abandon his friends and family just to hate on the Jedi religion on a remote planet.

    Literally every single plot point in the Luke story from TLJ is against the character. It's utter nonsense.
    Passive-aggressive behavior leads to the dark side.
     
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  9. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    Except that a similar beat of Luke on the Falcon remains in the movie.
     
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  10. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    Luray, Virginia
    Yeah, but i always interpreted the later scene as more ruminating about the past in general and regrets, and it quickly becomes an Artoo reunion which sort of undercuts the moment a bit.

    I thought the idea of Luke putting up this grumpy old man front for Rey acting like he didn't care and was unaffected by the news he just was given,basically telling her to go away and then to see him go off alone and to himself and not only show him mourning Han ( in conjunction with Leia at that very moment half a galaxy away...that transition is brilliant) but you get a sense that he is struggling with his decision to leave everything.it's very subtle and done with no dialogue, but that scene along with the Artoo scene on the Falcon and the also cut " third lesson" scene really sells the idea of Luke's dilemma much better than what's in the movie. It's a more realized arc for Luke IMO.
     
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  11. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    Nope...not passive aggressive. You presented yourself as an expert on the character just like you've just ruled yourself as an expert on what kind of offspring Han and Leia would have had, what kind of student Luke would have trained etc. You seemed to be an authority on fictional not real people and how their lives turned out. I was just asking you a simple question. However I was disappointed that as it turns out, you are not an expert and are just guessing based on your preferences on how you think the lives of Luke, Han and Leia turned out. Thus It's just your opinion. Just as the movie's scriptwriter had his opinion. Which probably means your opinion means just as much as his. Meaning fictional characters don't have a predetermined path. Huh. Funny world we live in. Darn it. Oh well. Thanks anyway!



    Isn't there a quote somewhere about only a sith dealing in absolutes? Hmmm...
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
  12. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

    Location:
    Void
    Passive-aggressive 100%.

    It's you using this sarcastic tone and talking about some "expertise", whatever that's supposed to mean in this case. In reality, I'm pointing out the basic facts about this character, shown in the original trilogy. You know, I'm pointing out all the stuff TLJ ignores.
     
  13. Grunge Master

    Grunge Master 8 Bit Enthusiast

    Location:
    Michigan
    I have a lot of problems with TLJ myself; however, you have to remember that his character didn't change 'suddenly', he was on that island for, what, 30 years? In fact, I do regard myself as a fan boy, and Luke being grumpy and ornery and becoming one with the force at the end of the movie is the least of my problems with it.
     
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  14. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

    Location:
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    He wouldn't go there for 30 years in the first place.

    It kills me that those old Jedi Knight games from Raven Software have a much better portrayal of Luke Skywalker. Those were done for peanuts in comparison with TLJ and yet they had much better writers on board.
     
  15. Squealy

    Squealy Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Vancouver
    The idea that Luke has given up being a Jedi and has become a recluse hiding from the universe — including the location and his scruffy look — was established in The Force Awakens, so why do people blame Rian Johnson for it?
     
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  16. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Well, people are complaining about politics in TLJ that aren't actually in TLJ. So I'm not surprised they blame this film for the whole "Luke's a recluse" storyline, too.

    I mean, if you look at the actual storyline of the film and not made-up internet grievances:

    Girl goes off to search for Luke Skywalker
    Leia hatches plot to evade First Order
    Luke - like Yoda in Empire - doesn't want to train girl because he screwed everything up and he's worried she'll make an even bigger mess of things
    Subordinates screw everything up, sorta confirming Luke's reservations
    Luke decides to end the Jedi once and for all
    Rey steals the cool books
    Rey fails to turn Ben
    Snoke's devious plan gets him carved up like a roast
    Ben fails to turn Rey
    Leia's brilliant idea to hide and signal for help doesn't work, either - nobody cares
    Entire Resistance is rescued by grumpy old Luke Skywalker & the girl he didn't want to train

    So essentially the entire story is as un-PC as you can possibly get - a bunch of girls, a Latino and a black guy screw everything up and a middle-aged white guy has to come save them from annihilation, with a little help from the one person he didn't want to train because she's kinda nuts.

    The result: millions of voices scream out from their mom's basement...
     
  17. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Luke Skywalker was always a whiny little ***** with poor impulse control. It's why Yoda didn't want to train him in the first place. He'd be dead and the Empire would still reign if it weren't for his dad turning on the Emperor. Yeah, Luke's presence prompted that, but it was sort of an unintended consequence - just like Rey's arrival on the First Order's ship ended up triggering the death of Snoke.
     
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  18. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    Luray, Virginia
    Well he wasn't there for 30 years. Based on the time line and order of events. He was there anywhere between 6 years to a decade.
     
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  19. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    And the idea of Luke being broken and disillusioned and in exile after he failed his charges originated with George Lucas.
     
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  20. Grunge Master

    Grunge Master 8 Bit Enthusiast

    Location:
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    He wouldn't? How come?
     
  21. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

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    You're contradicting yourself and showing zero understanding of the old trilogy. Yoda didn't want to train Luke because he was reckless (). Luke would put his friends and family above everything else and he would not stand still while the galaxy needed help. The very opposite of what Luke is in TLJ.

    Luke's reason behind willingly facing the emperor was that his father would help him because he knew there was good in him. It was reckless, but it turned out he was right to risk his life and believe in his own father. It was intended. That's why Luke says that he's a Jedi, like his father before him. It's as if you completely lost the most important sequence of events from RotJ.
     
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  22. BeatleJWOL

    BeatleJWOL Senior Member

    Well, technically, I don't think Luke would have been on Ach-To specifically for quite that long. In the Legends stories, it took several years of research and scouting for Luke to finally establish the Jedi Academy (on Yavin IV of all places; I loved that), so I can't imagine it'd have been an all-30-year thing in this continuity either.

    That said, Luke's clearly been gone for a couple years by the time of TFA.
     
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  23. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

    Location:
    Void
    Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong. He didn't need to be rescued at Cloud City. He could have joined Vader or not even go there in the first place. By choosing to confront Vader, he saved his friends because Vader kept them alive as a bait for Luke. By resisting Vader's temptations, Luke made him even more conflicted and shifted him towards the light side of the Force. Without that encounter, Luke and Vader would never have the chance to bond before the emperor started his attempts to twist their fates in the throne chamber.

    Yeah, and Ben pointed out he was pretty much the same when Yoda trained him, so it was all Yoda making excuses, except for the reckless part.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
  24. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    Luke broke his training and raced off to rescue his friends at Cloud City, but with the exception of Han they turned out to be fine without his help. HE was the one who needed to be rescued. In fact, he slowed their escape, and they were nearly recaptured as a result! He accomplished nothing except losing his hand. He should have stayed on Dagobah! (Perhaps a lesson he took with him to Ahch-to?)
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
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  25. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    I always took Luke to be very selfish in his drive even if it was geared towards the IDEA of saving others.

    For instance, when he calls out to Leia at the end of Empire...not just a tad selfish?

    Luke abandoning the Endor to "save" his father? Ultimately more useless.

    Which gets to something else. Why is Luke considered such a traitor and terrible person for choosing to retire, but when Yoda hides out on Dagobah it is all good? I haven't gone through any of these 171 pages, so excuse me if any of this has been brought up before.
     
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