Star Wars: Episode VIII (The Last Jedi) - SPOILERS POSSIBLE*

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by MLutthans, Nov 10, 2015.

  1. greg_t

    greg_t Forum Resident

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    St. Louis, MO
    Spot on. I would just add that it shows that Luke is exactly like what Yoda said when he first met Luke, that Luke is reckless and is his own worst enemy. Luke has the potentia to make things much worse than they already are. Hence Yoda says to Obi when Luke leaves "told you I did, reckless is he, now matters are worse".
     
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  2. amonjamesduul

    amonjamesduul Forum Resident

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    florida
    So where does Vader leaving the Falcon in working order,un impounded,door unlocked but with deactivated hyperdrive just in case to RE catch them using the tractor beam in orbit fit in with his plan?
     
  3. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

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    St. Louis
    Wasn't counting on R2 eh?
     
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  4. amonjamesduul

    amonjamesduul Forum Resident

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    florida
    They never do!But I could never understand why Vader thought his men would screw up and lose Leia and Chewie after they were already in custody.Past experience with Stormtroopers I guess.
     
  5. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

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    St. Louis
    The first McDonald's Stormtroopers were the elite, but as time went on like Michael Keaton Multiplicity, something was lost in the quality control. All kinds of height differences, voice differences, dimwits that think think a gas leak is worth ignoring, and ultimately helmets used as musical instruments. Yeah, I guess that New Order rebooted all that for a new generation to claim is even better than the original. Though I guess when the last conveyor belt specials are being compared to what we see now, it is more like saying that Hellraiser Revelation or Jason Goes to Hell is indicative of the best of the series...uh no.

    Then again, those Stormtrooper were never really good unless we are comparing them to the robots in the prequels. Kind of like Dumb and Dumber. Is anyone really going to split those hairs. What the Empire had to work with....no wonder Vader is frustrated choking out people left and right.
     
  6. marblesmike

    marblesmike Forum Resident

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    Philadelphia, PA
    Um so it can't be foreshadowing?
     
  7. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    Luke failed at the cave, he failed at his mission to rescue his friends, he lost a hand and needed to be rescued himself. If Lando hadn't turned hero, Leia, Chewie and Threepio would have been delivered to Vader's ship as prisoners, and Luke would have been left dangling at the bottom of Cloud City. If you want to consider all that a success because, hey, at least he didn't succumb to the Dark Side, by all means go right ahead.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
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  8. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

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    St. Louis
    I guess the end result is a kind of success...but I call it lucky. No matter how much he called out to Leia, ultimately it is the man piloting the vehicle that saved his butt. Lando is the true hero in this scenario. And before one says that Chewie could have forced him...I don't know. If Lando wanted to point that baby down, and take the hits, they could have all perished.

    Also another thing to consider, Lando seemed to be one foot out the door anyway because once the Empire tangles with him, he stops being "respectable". Because as Han says, he has no love for the Empire.
     
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  9. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

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    MA
    That's right. The Empire effed with his livelihood, so Lando decided to get even by helping Vader's prisoners escape. And, you know... blowing up the second Death Star at Endor...
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
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  10. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

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    St. Louis
    Yup, without Luke's help. Matter of fact, what did Luke do on Endor besides abandoning his group to try to save a sociopath that murdered young children and countless rebels? Sure he flew 3PO around to gain the worship of the Ewoks, but that was kinda going on anyway. One could argue that Leia might have talked them into freeing them. Hard to say, but still, if I was the rebellion I would be just a little more than peeved about Luke's actions toward the devotion of his father. Even Leia tells him to run away. They sure could have used Luke in the fight later and he could have been a distraction by having Vader tied up with trying to find him. Even if Vader was in a tie fighter later, Luke would still be there to hold him off in an X-wing.

    Regardless, Vader wasn't worth saving. He was a child killing, rebel killing sociopath that participated in entire planets being blown up (by standing watch while it happened). Luke was blinded by his emotions when even Yoda and Ben said that he must destroy him. I mean c'mon, if I was Han I would be like...dude do you remember how he tortured me and froze me for how long? We almost died because of him how many times?

    If I was Yoda and Ben I would be beating his force ghost down or banishing it. I sure wouldn't be smiling and say...ahhhh...all is forgiven in this Kodak moment!
     
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  11. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

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    Poland
    [Mod: Inconsiderate comment removed]

    Luke didn't fail in Cloud City because Vader's goal was to turn him to the dark side. Luke didn't turn and bought time for his friends to escape. Lando would never to able to do anything if Vader wasn't preoccupied with Luke. Loosing a hand was the price for saving his friends, but both Yoda and Ben thought he is going to turn or die.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2018
  12. Jim B.

    Jim B. Forum Resident

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    UK
    I've said it before but if you analyse the original trilogy like people analyse the new films then they completely fall apart in so many ways - the character choices, motivations etc.

    I don't think it matters as I know it's only a fantasy film - and I feel the same way about the new ones.

    But the hater minority need to realise they need to treat all these films the same. They just ignore all the stupid things about the OT while making a big issue out of the same things in the new films.
     
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  13. Jim B.

    Jim B. Forum Resident

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    UK
    That is very true but would you accept the blame for that as being down to how badly written the prequels were. Vader first kills all the Sand people, including the kids and women, then kills the 'younglings' in the temple. I mean really he's gone when he massacres the Sand people (but somehow Padame still wants to sleep with the psycho).

    Plus his whole justification for turning to the dark side is so badly handled. Yoda and Obi-Wan, at the end of Jedi, are not aware at that point how badly Lucas will screw up the prequels.

    I think in a perfect world he would not be a child killing psycho. A better written prequel would see some logic to his decisions and a genuine sense that he thought he was doing the right thing (which is only briefly touched on in the field scene in AOTC where he says people should be made to do the right thing).

    Then he could be redeemed later and it would make sense. He does blow up planets but if you read something like Lost Stars then the people working for the Empire believe they are fighting terrorists and all that destruction is sold in the same way our leaders today sell it as being 'justified'.
     
  14. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

    Location:
    Poland
    Vader's goal was to overthrow the emperor with Luke's help from the start because he knew Luke is his son. He wanted to freeze him because that would make turning him to the dark side easier once he's captured and at his mercy, but after Luke escaped the freezer, Vader decided to turn him on the spot. Luke resisted him and saved his friends because Vader would have crushed Landon's little rebellion single-handedly if he wasn't preoccupied with Luke. That's why Lando ordered an evacuation. Cloud City was lost and they could only escape while Vader was busy trying to turn Luke to the dark side of the Force.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  15. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    Right, Yoda and Ben saw two and only two options-- turn or die. It's the same two options Vader gave Luke. And that's because Lando was the wild card that no one anticipated, which is what I said earlier. Had he not turned hero, the Falcon wouldn't have been in a position to save Luke in the first place.

    Look, I would see it your way if Luke and Lando got together first and hashed out a plan-- "Lando, I'll keep Vader distracted long enough for you to get everyone out on the Falcon." But it just didn't happen that way. At best, you could argue that Lando recognized an opportunity with Luke's arrival to make an unexpected move, but that's a far cry from giving Luke sole credit for successfully rescuing his friends.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
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  16. lambfan68

    lambfan68 Forum Resident

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    Minnesota
    Yeah, the whole "romance" is awkward and creepy. It plays a little better if you go with the theory that Anakin is manipulting her using the Force to make her love him. It isn't hinted at in the movies, but it makes it easier to stomach if you go with that angle.
     
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  17. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

    Location:
    Poland
    Lando would have died at Vader's hand if it wasn't for Luke, and also Lando wouldn't bring Luke aboard the Falcon it wasn't for Leia. Force was at work. To use Stephen King's vocabulary from The Dark Tower, they were ka-tet - one made from many, a group of people connected by the Force. Luke didn't fail because he gave them time to escape and didn't die because they went back for him. It was all because Luke believed in his friends, whereas the old Jedi masters like Yoda and Ben were too detached to see how Luke and his friends form a unity through the Force. The old Jedi Order had a problem with stressing hierarchy and detachment too much. It's why they were destroyed in the end.

    This is exactly why Luke from TLJ is against the character created in the old trilogy. Luke's strength was the connection with his friends and sister. They wanted to focus on the new cast in the Disney trilogy, so Luke was thrown in as a magnet for the old fans, but they completely twisted the character to suit their new storyline with Rey and Kylo. That's why so many old fans hate TLJ.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  18. tkl7

    tkl7 Agent Provocateur

    Location:
    New York, NY, USA
    Luke went to Vader not just to try to redeem him, but also to distract Vader and the Emperor, both overconfident, into focusing on trying to turn Luke and ignoring the true threat the rebels led by Han and Leia posed. Had he stayed on Endor, the Emperor would have focused his attention there.
     
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  19. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

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    Luke says it in the movie, but some people seem to see and hear only what they want.
     
  20. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    We don't know that. If that was Vader's intention, he could have Force-choked Lando to death at any point rather than dictate new deals to him.

    The rest of your post is well argued. I will add that you have a unique and internally consistent interpretation of these films, but it does seem to ignore the hard lessons Luke had to learn as a result of the defects of his personality. These are hard lessons Luke is still grappling with in TLJ. And that is that failure is an acceptable, perhaps even vital yardstick by which we measure our growth. This is something that Kylo's "let the past die" mantra is at odds with.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
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  21. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

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    St. Louis
    I don't think anyone is trying to just be prejudice and not look at new ideas. I have seen some good discussion and I don't think anyone has been too far off base.

    You speak a lot of truth on this, and I have no doubt that there was motivation from the Emperor to kind of show off to Luke. Lest we forget, the Emperor already blew his wad putting his elite on the planet.

    I think this is very similar to the assumption that Lando wouldn't have handled Vader the second time around, or at least fooled him enough no matter where Luke ended up. We can ponder the possibilities, but there is no way of knowing. Vader had limitations as well, though the prequels are starting to turn him into this superhero and I don't know if I agree with this direction at all.

    The Vader I know is beat when he is taken off guard. Han missing Vader directly at the end of A New Hope, is also part of his character because he takes the 7-10 pin split to take out all 3 which is just brilliant. This isn't about "winning" it is about doing what is right to fit the job completion.

    As for Luke, while Luke may have went to Vader in part to form some kind of distraction, I think the meat of why he went there was to turn a sociopathic child murdering man back to good. Again, I don't see this as having any use whatsoever, and in the grand scheme of things...it didn't. What is worse is that he could have cost the whole rebellion by him having that main focus.

    Very well thought out post and it did make me think.

    The prequels are part of the story, and I don't quite agree that they are badly written. Sons follow fathers and often to a fault.

    To me, the father being softened up happened in ESB and ROTJ. I choose to think of Vader in terms of what he was in A New Hope. EVIL. Perhaps not even Luke's father. So in a way those movies changed the perception and Lucas put it back to where it should have been and considering he directed the efforts, I actually wish he was more involved in Empire and Return. I know these movies are beloved, but I actually like Lucas story and style more.

    As for Padme, like a lot of women (and men), are attracted to crazy. In her mind she thought of the sand people like animals as well and at the least gave him a pass based on the fact that he was a torn grieving son acting out of impulse and insanity. She can not completely agree, but still show support for how he felt and have empathy for him fighting for his mother, even in death.

    Of course even Padme has a line and that was demonstrated later.

    As for the justification, I don't see it. Vader's fate/judgement was sealed the moment he grabbed up Leia and made her watch that destruction. There is no excuse for it. Killing innocent people is never good and once that move was made, I don't think there is any way of saving that kind of man. Younglings, just explain what was already there. Vader killed lots of people at will and that includes the orders to roast up Luke's Aunt and Uncle.

    Vader killed so many people, I would argue that a real supporter of the rebellion would have been trying to stab him the first second he got a chance.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  22. Jim B.

    Jim B. Forum Resident

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    UK
    Just on that - she had never been to that planet before, and had no idea what the Sand People were like. Plus she was a member of the Senate and by definition must have worked with all sorts of different species and beings in her time. So she should be tolerant of all species.

    That scene is like a big dumb blot on the prequels. When people get upset they cry, or throw something. They don't massacre innocent women and children. Only someone seriously dangerous does that and she can't give him a pass. At that point she should have been thinking 'oh ****, I need to get away from this nutter, he's insane' not 'Oh Anakin, I love you'. She of all people should have run a mile.
     
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  23. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

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    Poland
    Vader kept Lando alive as a keeper of Leia and Chewbacca. Those two were kept alive as a bait for Luke, along with Han before the bountyhunter took him. If Luke didn't come, Vader would have killed Lando, Leia and Chewbacca. That's why Vader says to Lando, "Pray I don't alter it [the deal] any further."
     
  24. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    That's a lot of supposition on your part. Vader doesn't tell Lando he's being "kept alive" as a keeper of anything. He does tell Lando to bring the Princess and the Wookiee to his ship. Lando protests because, as he had told Han, the original deal was that Leia and Chewie would have to stay with him at Cloud City. But at that point, the threat wasn't on Lando's life; the threat was to leave a permanent garrison behind at Bespin. That meant the loss of autonomy for Lando, which was bad for business.

    Vader then reneged on that deal and decided he would take Leia and Chewie, too, even though they were no longer needed to bait Luke since he had already arrived. Only then did Vader imply a vague threat to Lando's life if he didn't comply. Lando realized he had no leverage left and that Vader was a bad faith negotiator; there could be no "good" deals with the Empire. And that's when he decided to take action.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
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  25. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

    Location:
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    Lando and his men kept Leia and Chewbacca as bait until Luke arrived. At that point, Vader had to attend to his son with no delay, so he told Lando that he alters the deal because he planned to kill Leia and Chewbacca as soon as he had Luke frozen. That's why Luke's fight with Vader saved his friends. Luke gave Lando time for the little rebellion and escape. Lando knew perfectly well that once Vader gets on this, they're all dead. Escape was their only chance. That's why he ordered evacuation and went to the Falcon. Luke was keeping Vader busy while his friends and sister escaped.

    Luke didn't fail in Cloud City. He saved his friends and bonded with Vader, which revived the remnants of Anakin. If it wasn't for that, Luke and the rebel alliance would have been destroyed by the emperor.
     

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