Star Wars: Episode VIII (The Last Jedi) - SPOILERS POSSIBLE*

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by MLutthans, Nov 10, 2015.

  1. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

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    St. Louis
    Did the sand people hold a senate spot? I can't remember honestly. Still what is important is what Anakin thought not what she thought.

    She was horrified but also understanding with someone she loved. Not seeing that as "a big dumb plot", just the fact that of a motherly like instinct to protect. This happens all the time with humans and why can she not be a human with flaws?

    Why not? They were animals to him and they could be animals to her. The key is that she can have unconditional love for yes...even a psychopath.

    Heart wants what the heart wants. She had a concerned look and I don't think she was blindly ok with it. However I think that given the circumstances where his mother was a slave (and what else??) I think that him snapping was insanity. Insanity and a duty to follow your lover/fiance is common even with senator types. Not seeing how she is different than any other human that had strange behavior in history.

    In some ways, knowing his mom too, she might have felt the same.
     
  2. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

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    St. Louis
    This is the first I have ever heard that Vader intended to kill Leia and Chewbacca? Where do you get this information?

    Regardless of the fate, it was about the greater good more than the individuals. Luke didn't save anyone. Lando is who saved them.

    I don't disagree that Luke kept Vader busy, the question is whether Lando at that point would have went all out with soldiers and the population if need be. As many storm troopers that were there at that time, I am not so sure they could control a complete city and ensure that even Vader himself would escape with a life.

    Lando may have did things on the sly, but if Vader himself was taking them away I think that is a whole new story. I think you overestimate Vader's ability at that time.

    Though again, the mythic super hero way they have Vader now, I wouldn't be surprised if they had him CGI break dancing like they did with Yoda. The story is how I see with what they wrote then, not with how they keep mushrooming it now.

    Luke was a mild player at best and pretty much insignificant as the story plays out in the 5th chapter.

    I don't hold it against you for not agreeing with this, they are all just opinions. I certainly see and respect your viewpoint.
     
  3. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

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    Poland
    That's what Vader meant by altering the "deal" further. He kept them alive only as a bait for Luke and wouldn't even blink before killing them if he didn't need them anymore.

    Lando saved them? Lando almost got forced-choked by Vader. Lando was powerless and it's Luke who saved them all through the confrontation with Vader. You can't be so narrow-minded here and only look at action A and conclude it's all there is to it. This saga doesn't make any sense if people don't look at the bigger picture. Lando was the one who handled the escape for Cloud City on the technical level, but if it wasn't for Luke, Vader would have killed Lando and his little rebellion wouldn't happen in the first place.
    Luke is the most important character in the old trilogy. It's through his actions that the rebellion succeeded and he was able to do it because he believed in his friends and family until the end.

    Vader closes a circle in RotJ. Anakin was the one who allowed Palpatine to become the emperor and it was Anakin, awakened by Luke's actions, who destroyed the emperor.
     
  4. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

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    St. Louis
    When was this??

    I see your point of view I just don't agree with it.

    I don't feel I am being narrow minded and what you have said is insulting.

    Luke is important to the trilogy but I personally don't think he is the most important part of the story. Anakin is (IMHO), and I put Leia in second place.

    I am allowed to feel that way and shouldn't be put down with insults just because I don't feel as you or anyone does.
     
  5. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    The way I see it, there was no "bonding" with Vader at the end of TESB, no "reviving of the remnants of Anakin" until the climax of ROTJ. How can Luke have bonded with the monster who moments before had cut off his hand and told him everything he was lead to believe about his father was a lie? If there was a "bonding" and the "remnants of Anakin were revived" there, as you assert, why does Luke ask Yoda for confirmation of Vader's story? Why would he need to seek confirmation at all? Why does Vader ask Luke at the landing platform on Endor if he's finally accepted the truth then rejects the reference to "Anakin Skywalker" as a name that "no longer has any meaning for me"? Instead of the stark "join or die" choice Vader offered in TESB, here Luke presents his father with a third option, to "Come with me," and yet Vader still feels duty-bound to hand Luke over to the Emperor. That scene concludes with Luke lamenting that "My father is truly dead." I'm sorry, there's not a lot to support your assertion in the actual films that they "bonded" at Bespin.

    The third act of TESB follows two parallel but unrelated tracks-- one where Lando turns hero and leads our friends to safety, and the other where Luke faces the consequences and pays a price for his recklessness. The two separate threads don't merge until Leia hears Luke's pleas for help through the Force then redirects the Falcon back towards Cloud City-- back towards the very danger they are trying to escape-- in an effort to find and rescue him. As for Lando's thread, there was no indication in the movie whatsoever that Vader would kill Leia and Chewie after freezing Luke. Lando decided to take action once Vader altered the original deal which would have left Leia and Chewie at Cloud City, with Vader now taking them as prisoners instead. As I noted before, Lando was motivated to act when it became clear Vader would invalidate any deal they struck. Vader's mild Force-choke threat was all the proof Lando needed that he was truly on the losing end of this deal. He wanted to intercept Boba Fett before the Slave I could depart with Han but was too late. He then advised everyone at Cloud City to flee the Empire because, one, it was his duty as the administrator of Cloud City; and two, he gambled that the ensuing chaos would provide some cover for him as he lead Leia and Chewie towards the Falcon. It was Lando's actions that allowed Leia and the Falcon to be in a position to rescue Luke in the first place. If he hadn't done that, Luke's Force pleas to Leia would have been pointless because she would have a been a prisoner onboard Vader's ship.

    I'm sorry, I've been watching TESB since I was 8 in 1980, and I don't think you'll be able to rewrite my "head canon" any more than I can rewrite yours. Apart from resisting the lure of the Dark Side and finding a way to narrowly escape with his life, I will never see Luke's "rescue" effort at Cloud City to be the success that you see. What I see is a test of character that he barely passes. It's the same test that Anakin fails when he slaughters that village of Sand People, and it's the same test that Rey faces when Ben Solo offers her a "place in the story." It's a test that exploits our main characters' weaknesses-- recklessness, rage, purposelessness-- and how they respond shapes their destiny. Luke learned from his test, but it's a lesson that he would need to revisit a few more times in his life-- in the Emperor's Throne Room as he's about to slaughter his own father, and years later when faced with visions of what his nephew might one day become.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
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  6. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

    Location:
    Poland
    It's one of the subtleties of the old trilogy which most people don't even notice. Right after Vader tells Lando that he should pray the deal doesn't get altered any further, there's a very brief moment when Vader uses the Force on Lando's throat. Skip to 4:18 in this video.

    I already explained this in a previous post in this very topic.
    Not a lot if you ignore the ending which confirms everything I said. Vader was at conflict with himself and nobody believed in him, except Luke. Everything you said in the quoted post is omitting the context. For example, when Luke says that his father it truly dead, it's just a conditional construct. Luke doesn't say his father is truly dead as a fact. He says that IF Vader won't help him, then his father is truly dead. Vader does help him, so his father wasn't dead and Luke was right all along because he sensed good in him through the Force. Something both Yoda and Ben failed to do, which is why Anakin turned against them in the first place.
    Oh please, the empire kills their prisoners. They already signed the death sentence for Leia in A New Hope. Lando got so nervous because he knew Vader means killing them.

    Your "head canon" can't be changed, but it doesn't overwrite what's in the movie. You're projecting things which aren't there at all. In some cases, it's so severe that you completely omit plain facts from the narrative because you prefer your own narrative. Sorry, but we're not talking about fan fiction here.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  7. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    Brilliant post bferr1! Not that other posts are devoid of great ideas, but I really enjoyed this summation.

    It would be like applauding some rebel soldier holding up Vader while being sliced down as the reason the Leia got the plans to R2.

    Leia had help yes, but she is the driving force.
     
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  8. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    Wow, I could honestly say the same for you. I think we've hit an impasse. This was entertaining, but it's time to move on.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
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  9. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

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    St. Louis
    I can see it a little bit. Never caught that. It may or may not be a force choke, and I think any novel or even script is not the final say.

    Regardless, it actually nails home that Lando was done with dealing with Vader. Thus Lando taking control swiftly.

    Wow...glad that wasn't aimed at me...yet.

    Funny how if Vader signed the death sentence, why didn't they just carry it out? Why the screwing around?

    While you may like to project what you THINK will happen, that doesn't make it so. Vader said take them to my ship, and while the outcome wasn't going to be good, that doesn't necessarily end in death at that time. They could have been used as prisoners for years for all we know. Regardless it was Lando that saved them. There is no question about this.

    Of course Han could have been saved as well, but then again Luke caused them to be slowed up by running around and causing Leia to be stalled. Though Chewbacca choking him caused even more delay, there is no questions that every second counted.

    Luke in his careless nature actually brought attention to their group which caused precious seconds to be wasted and could have brought Vader right to the group before Lobot got a chance to save them.

    In watching the scene again, I can't help but chuckle a little bit about this discussion. They were literally broke away from the prisoner situation minutes after Luke showed up and I am supposed to believe that this was what makes Luke's oh so important as a distraction?

    If anything delayed them at all, it was the attempt to save Han. Lando planned the escape and was successful and I don't buy for one single solitary second that Vader was going to micromanage this situation if Luke didn't show up.

    We just have to agree to disagree.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
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  10. Texastoyz

    Texastoyz Forum Resident

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    Texas, USA
    The Last Jedi was no good.
     
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  11. Jim B.

    Jim B. Forum Resident

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    UK
    Thank you for that well reasoned argument why you personally didn't enjoy the film.
     
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  12. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

    Location:
    Poland
    I'm not describing what I imagine about the movies. I'm describing what's in the movies. You went as far as to ignore actions and words of the characters and the sequence of events you had portrayed is not in the movies.
    It can only be a Force choke because it happens right after Darth Vader threatens Lando.
     
  13. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis
    How do you figure that? Lando didn't grasp his neck he made a gesture to his CHEST, plus there was no sound. When you say that "it can only"...you talk in absolutes.

    We will just have to agree to disagree. It doesn't much matter anyway. One neck crush doesn't equate to Leia and Chewbacca death. That is a jump I will never understand.

    We need to get back to Last Jedi. There are so many Star Wars topics everywhere it is hard not to discuss aspects of the saga because it is that good. lol

    I have one question before I move on though. Since I was basically pushed to watch that scene and others...what is up with the added Darth Vader going to the Star Destroyer. It looks like an outtake from ROTJ and most importantly it is obvious the inside of the Death Star!! Does this mean they were already working on the it in pilot inside the super star destroyer! lol. A new plot twist!
     
  14. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    "Takehaniyasubiko, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

    We'll have to agree to disagree.
     
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  15. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    I think the added scene was to simply show how Vader got from Bespin to his Star Destroyer, not that we needed to see that happen. At one moment in the original cut, he's on Cloud City and says, "Bring my shuttle." A short while later, he's on the bridge of his ship. I guess Lucas thought that needed to be filled in for some reason, but it really didn't. It's the same approach Lucas takes with the battle of Geonosis, where he laboriously tracks the progress of Dooku, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Padme and Yoda from the execution arena, to the battlefield, to the hanger bay.

    The footage added to TESB clearly came from ROTJ outtakes as they were not about to construct new sets for such a short scene. I guess they assumed that all Imperial hanger bays looked the same, and none of us would notice!
     
  16. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

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    St. Louis
    No my explanation of mini-deathstar makes way more sense. :winkgrin:

    Wait, maybe Vader wasn't boarding the Star Destroyer, maybe this was a quick flash forward into the future! After all, you see the Moff Jerjerrod mouthing the words "Lord Vader...(this is an unexpected pleasure)".
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
  17. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    [​IMG]
    "Lord Vader... this is a really, really unexpected pleasure. I mean, really really."
     
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  18. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

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    Poland
    Because it's absolutely Vader who used the Force on Lando's throat. It's right after Vader threatens him and the Force choke is his trademark in the old trilogy. There's not doubt to this scene.
     
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  19. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

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    St. Louis
    Dude you can say it 100 times and it isn't going to change the facts. It is not clear at all that he has been choked. No sound, and no hand on throat. Believe what you want, it doesn't bother me.

    Scripts can change, and screenplays are not always the truth of what has been filmed.

    AGREE TO DISAGREE
     
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  20. superstar19

    superstar19 Senior Member

    Location:
    Canton, MI, USA
    It was always a confusing scene for me. Not clear to me that he has been choked. It could also be Lando showing fear thinking that he's about to be choked by Vader.
     
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  21. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

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    I like things like this because it is open for interpretation. I think Lando was a smart man and his fear or annoyance, or both, was him having a last straw kind of attitude. I think he was well aware of the stories and I am sure he did feel some squeezing even if in his mind. I took it as a sign of feeling lucky. He was still showed courage by protesting and calling out Vader for the liar he was.

    Regardless, no matter what, Darth Vader was going to get it sooner or later. If I was him I would be telling Luke...you are darn lucky that you didn't bring him back, because if you dragged that sith to the village I would be figuring out a way to kill him myself. Regardless, I bet Lando's missles hitting home were so sweet. That "yee haaaa" was so poetic, it actually really and truly makes me annoyed at even the thought of Vader being "redeemed".

    I love in the movie Clerks where Dante states "...compliments of Lando Calrissian" when speaking of all the innocent denfence contractors that got killed because of the average Stormtrooper not being able to install a toilet main. lol

    For the Last Jedi, one thing that is never even considered is that fact that Luke just may have been more of a loner in the end because so many rebels heard the stories of him trying to save that murderer. I am betting that little remarks here and there wore him down. And why shouldn't it? You had a father like that?

    I love Vader in a way that is like cheering for Jason in Friday the 13th, and the fact that he is a tortured soul....on the other hand to forget all he has done? Yeah right.
     
  22. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    This one I have to go along with Takehaniyasubiko. Yeah, it's subtle in the movie, but the Marvel Comics adaptation I read as a kid made it pretty clear. Still, what Vader does to him has to feel like a tickle compared to a pissed-off Wookiee wrapping his hands around his throat.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
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  23. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

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    St. Louis
    I am going by the movie not comics, screenplays, or scripts. What is filmed is what is important, but I understand how you feel. After just watching the scene, I do not think it is clear. Regardless, cool if you do. No one has to be "wrong" to debate a topic.

    *update just saw the picture. Yup if he did that I wouldn't be debating this, but he did none of that. Though thanks for posting that. AWESOME!

    Btw, I wonder how dumb Leia and Chewie feel after that little choking incident. If I was Han I would be like....so I stayed frozen for how long while you guys were putzing around distrusting my friend that has no love for the empire? lol Haha just kidding..but still...

    Anyway, I was thinking about how heroic Lando was and also Leia never wavering. I mean think about it. She says "your father" with disgust in ROTJ when she has the discussion with Luke, tells him to run away....and has absolutely no feelings for Vader at all. She resists the mind probe, goes through whatever torture when she is thrown in the room in Empire, she goes through what kind of horror before hitting that skimpy outfit in ROTJ, I would even argue that she was probably groped by Ewoks when she got in her new outfit....yet there she is strong as ever. She knows how evil this Vader is and she is so peeved about the whole planet being blown up, I can't imagine how much hate she had after noticing Vader's "being bold" killing her little army on the freight system, while simultaneously noting him being leashed to Tarken later and Vader probably getting a piece of that that "foul stench" as well. Heck think about all the Rebels that were blasted away that she no doubt knew a lot longer than Luke did him being a Johnny come lately and all.

    Luke on the other hand, saw his Aunt and Uncle fried up and still wants to save this man (maybe Luke is still holding grudges about that power converter incident)? It never sat well with me that Luke basically cut down an old man past his prime in ROTJ (and not doing it easily) while pretty much having a defeat handed to him in ESB...and I would argue that Vader was still past his prime then! I mean good on you Luke...a man has mechanical arms and legs and has trouble breathing. Woo hooo...you are a real Jedi now. :D

    Yeah, again, I can see him shamed and running away as he probably should have a long time back. I don't blame Leia for not breaking her back to find him. She has been doing the heavy lifting from the very beginning. IMHO she is the true focus of OT and new movies and it is sad that she is gone.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
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  24. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

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    Thank you. I was about to look for that myself.

    Guys, I like fan interpretations and theories. That's why I use Internet forums. With that being said, certain things are absolutes because we are talking about something which is set in stone. Vader choked Lando. It's a fact. You can't say it's not your interpretation. You might as well say that Luke was a Wookie according to your interpretation.
    Dude, that's in the movie. It's what filmed. It's in the script. That's why the comic has that scene. It's based on the movie. Vader would have killed Lando, Chewbacca and Leia if Luke didn't arrive to fight him.
     
  25. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    Like I said, it's subtle. Lando looks slightly confused as his hand slowly goes to his throat at the 4:32 mark.



    I admit that without the Marvel Comic filling in the blank, I wouldn't have picked up on it, either.
     
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