Starman - David Bowie. Original UK LP and 45 mix is AWOL!!

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Mal, Feb 21, 2007.

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  1. lemonjello

    lemonjello Forum Resident

    I got a like new US single with picture sleeve will dig it out now and give it a quick comparison to the SACD.

    Hold tight,
    Jake:thumbsup:
     
  2. dotheDVDeed

    dotheDVDeed Forum Resident

    Location:
    So. Cal., USA
    Well the three instances of Starman in my CD collection are all of the "quiet mix" variety.

    Singles 1969 to 1993 featuring..... RYKO

    Essential D. B. --Best of 1969-1974 Limited Edit 1998... EMI-Capitol

    David Bowie--Ziggy Stardust ... RYKO
     
  3. His Masters Vice

    His Masters Vice W.C. Fields Forever

    I think it's probable that the loud mix was used on the Ziggy LP in at least some other territories.

    What I'm wondering is "which mix was used on compilation LPs released prior to the introduction of CD" ? For example, ChangesTwoBowie, which came out in 1981. I've got this LP somewhere ... but where? :confused:
     
  4. globule2

    globule2 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montreal
    This statement contradicts (at least the intent of) the entry in The Illustrated DB discography, which, as you know, I've already once posted once elsewhere:

    Starman (Bowie): released as the first single from The Rise And Fall Of Ziggy Stardust And The Spiders From Mars. In the US (RCA 74-0719) and Portugal (RCA TP-656), a slightly edited version (4'05" vs 4'16") was used. Two different mixes of the album version are available, with the instrumental A to G section just before the chorus mixed in either very prominently (original UK edition of Ziggy Stardust, reissued a/o on The Best Of Bowie [K-Tel LP]) or rather subdued (original US edition of Ziggy Stardust, reissued on a/o The Singles Collection). Both mixes were released as singles, e.g. the UK album version in the UK (RCA 2199) and the Netherlands (RCA 74-16180) and the US album version on later pressings of the Japanese single (RCA SS-2197). The German single (also RCA 74-16180) is unique in featuring the US album version fading out earlier at 3'58".

    The following, dealing with versions on 7" vinyl, is based on my personal correspondence with the webmaster of the aformentioned site:

    As you know there are two different album versions, one with a loud piano before the chorus and one with a subdued piano. Additionally, a US single edit exists; it can be identified by the shorter intro that drops the part in which Bowie sings/hums 'Hey now now, hmm mm mm". The round up:

    - US/Portugal (EP): US single edit start & loud "Morse code"; the Portuguese EP is mono(4'05")
    - Japan: album start & subdued "Morse code" (4'13")
    - Germany: album start subdued "Morse code" but running much faster! (3'58")
    - UK/Holland/Spain/Italy: album start & loud "Morse code" (4'10-4'13")

    This means that three singles that were released in nearly identical sleeves (US/Germany/Holland) actually contain three different versions!


    ***

    It is my understanding that the UK single version of "Drive-In Saturday" is slightly different frrom the album version. I know this to be the case with the UK single version of "Rebel Rebel" (and both the UK single and album versions are again different than the version on the US, Canadian and Mexican singles that have "Lady Grinning Soul" on the B-side, but that's another story).
     
  5. chaz

    chaz Senior Member

    Location:
    Canada

    For the record folks, between myself and fellow forum member beckenham :wave: , we have every official cd released by David Bowie (including re-releases) from every country in the world. We can definitively say that the original "loud mix" of Starman has never been officially released on cd anywhere.
     
  6. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist Thread Starter

    I don't see the contradiction :confused:
     
  7. -Ben

    -Ben Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington DC Area
    Starman at Ben's:

    UK Ziggy RCA LP (1E) two copies: LOUD
    UK ChangesTWO LP: Quiet
    US Ziggy Black label RCA LP: Quiet
    MFSL Ziggy LP: Quiet
    US ChangesTWO LP: Quiet
    RCA Ziggy (Made in Japan) CD: Quiet
    Ryko Ziggy Au20 CD: Quiet
    Ryko Singles Collection CD: Quiet
     
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  8. lemonjello

    lemonjello Forum Resident

    Listened to it (us single) and It's hard to tell if the difference between the SACD is mix or sonic quality. First off, the single is in MONO, no doubt about that. There is the edit of the first few bars, but it does have the guitar strum that happens when David hums, but there is no vocal in this section, so it has to be a remix (at least that part.)
    Here's the matrix info:
    BPKS-5767- - 1S - A1C (looks likeAK handwriten) there is also a stamped R elsewhere in the run-off that may stand for RCA.


    Jake
     
  9. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist Thread Starter

    Thanks Ben :thumbsup:

    Well, we already know about the CD era - all instances of "Starman" are the "quiet mix".

    As for the LPs - is this "US Ziggy Black label RCA LP" the original US LP issue?

    It certainly seems that the origin of this "quiet mix" is the US 45 and LP as commonly thought.

    Why this has become the standard version is the strange part. Why would they use the US album master for all re-issues - even the SACD? Maybe it was misfiled as the UK master years ago?

    Hopefully the UK album master still exists with the "loud mix" in situ.

    An awful thought - suppose K-Tel were sent the "loud mix" master when they compiled "Best Of Bowie" and it was never returned. Then, when the "Ziggy" album master was next pulled by RCA and they found "Starman" missing they just replaced it with the "quiet mix" without realising the difference :yikes:

    Heh, I'm getting ahead of myself here but this wouldn't be the first time something like this has happened!

    Anyone know of a later instance of the "loud mix" being issued that that K-Tel "Best Of Bowie"? That came out in December 1980.

    The 1980 RCA International "Ziggy" re-issue LP has the "loud mix" but that is the last time I know of RCA having used it......
     
  10. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist Thread Starter

    You'd hear the difference a mile off if it was there - I imagine you have the "quiet mix" version on that single :agree:
     
  11. -Ben

    -Ben Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington DC Area
    Not original. Probably late 70s.
     
  12. lemonjello

    lemonjello Forum Resident

    That's what I thought but the piano did seem a little louder. I thought it was just the mastering though.

    Jake
     
  13. posieflump

    posieflump New Member

    Location:
    .
    I'd never heard any part of the "quiet mix" until listening to the samples above. Ouch - that's really rather weak by comparison. Almost sounds like an early mix was used by mistake, before they decided to drive the hook home by emphasising it.
     
  14. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist Thread Starter

    UK 45 samples

    Some samples from the UK 45:

    intro

    middle

    outro

    An example of the loud "morse code" section can be heard in the "middle" sample.

    I included the intro and outro in case anyone can spot a difference with the "quiet mix" other than the "morse code" section. I can't find any other differences but others disagree.
     
  15. globule2

    globule2 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Montreal
    Because you prefer to be blind? Which part of "I have read trusted sources that mention that later UK pressings have a different version from the earlier ones" -posted by me in the album by album thread following the quote from the discography- did you not understand?
    The DB discographer's mother tongue isn't English. His "Two different mixes of the album version are available, with the instrumental A to G section just before the chorus mixed in either very prominently (original UK edition of Ziggy Stardust...) " was meant to imply that later UK editions have a different version.
    Also, from time to time, eBay sellers of early UK Ziggys point out that their LPs contain a different mix of "Starman" (ie the "loud" one).
     
  16. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist Thread Starter

    OK, I see what you are saying now - thanks for making it clearer :thumbsup:

    Well, I have an original RCA Victor pressing (1E stampers), Chaz has a later Victor pressing (7E and 4E stampers), I have a 1980 RCA International pressing and these all have the "loud mix". I've yet to hear someone come forward with an RCA UK pressing of Ziggy Stardust with the "quiet mix" but it is possible I suppose - anyone?

    Maybe the later UK LP pressings with the "quiet mix" people are referring to are EMI ones from the 1990 re-issue series - I seem to remember they came out on LP and they would certainly have used the "quiet mix".

    Or maybe RCA UK re-issued the LP again in the 80s before relinquishing the rights - if that's the case then that could well have used the "quiet mix" since we know that ever since the CD era the "loud mix" has been AWOL. Indeed, I am beginning to think it hasn't been seen or heard of since 1980........
     
  17. brainwashed

    brainwashed Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Mal, somewhere in my LP archives (not here at the house) I have the Fame and Fashion compilation LP. I believe it has the "loud" mix, I also think it has an alternate mix of Space Oddity, but that's for another thread ;) . I always thought this was a great-sounding LP back in the day, better than the EMI Hits CDs for sure. Has this LP ever been released on CD in the UK? Ron
     
  18. Emilio

    Emilio Senior Member

    I don't remember this recording in detail, but it's interesting to recall that "What's Really Happening", the "contest" track that ended up on "hours..." with lyrics by Alex Grant, bears a striking similarity to this Supremes song. It must be one of those songs Bowie just can't get out of his mind sometimes!
     
  19. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    What mix does the MFSL vinyl use?
     
  20. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist Thread Starter

    Yep - there was a German pressed RCA CD edition for the European market as well as the Japanese RCA pressing for the US.

    I bought the LP back in 84 to take to France as a gift for my pen friend - of course, I taped it first :D

    I don't remember which mix is on the LP but I'd be surprised of it was the loud one since the CD has the quiet one.

    Can anyone check their Fame and Fashion LP? I don't really want to have to bring my cassette deck out of retirement for "Starman" - I already re-instated my turntable just to check the LP mix out!
     
  21. brainwashed

    brainwashed Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Yep, it came out in 1984. When I listened to your sample it reminded me of that LP... it is quite possible that I'm remembering the "loud" mix from one of my other LPs... I bought several UK and German imports in the early 80's. But if anyone has the LP handy it would be cool to know. Thanks, Ron
     
  22. brainwashed

    brainwashed Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    A bit off the thread track, but oh well... Mal, what's your CD comp recommendation for Classic Bowie. I have several different ones, but would be interested in what you think is the best-sounding and the best tracklisting. Thanks again, Ron
     
  23. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist Thread Starter


    I can only really recommend original RCA CDs for Bowie - fortunately there were a number of compilations!

    I actually really like Fame and Fashion - great sound and slightly off the beaten track as far as track selection goes but every song is a gem :agree:

    You can't go wrong with CHANGESONEBOWIE either. CHANGESTWOBOWIE is less consistent and Golden Years is pretty uneccesary if you have the others.

    I would also recommend the Ryko Au20 CHANGESBOWIE comp if you want to cover up to the Let's Dance era.

    :)
     
  24. brainwashed

    brainwashed Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    I have the two ChangesBowie comps, The Ryko box and the Best Of Bowie 2-CD set... and several LP comps, looks like I'm in good shape. Thanks, Ron
     
  25. -Ben

    -Ben Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington DC Area
    Read post #32
     
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