Starman - David Bowie. Original UK LP and 45 mix is AWOL!!

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Mal, Feb 21, 2007.

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  1. Steve E.

    Steve E. Doc Wurly and Chief Lathe Troll

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
  2. RL4L

    RL4L Forum Resident

    Location:
    James Brown Way
    Is it possible, with the "original single mix" being allegedly released on "Nothing Has Changed" that we'll finally be able to hear it?
     
    Mal likes this.
  3. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist Thread Starter

    Ahh, 2007 - back when I actually gave a **** :D

    Looks like a decent compilation (especially with all those single mixes). It will be interesting, assuming this is the 'loud' mix, to see if it gets re-instated in the next Ziggy re-issue...
     
    Daniel Plainview likes this.
  4. karmaman

    karmaman Forum Resident

    they used the single mix on the RSD picture disc and it sounded lousy, so don't expect too much from this compilation which will almost certainly be compressed to hell.
     
    Mal likes this.
  5. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist Thread Starter

    Enthusiasm curbed :righton:
     
  6. karmaman

    karmaman Forum Resident

    would love to be proved wrong but 20+ years of poorly mastered Bowie on CD has taught me to expect the worst.
     
    Mal likes this.
  7. RL4L

    RL4L Forum Resident

    Location:
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    Well, I can't seem to find the mix ANYWHERE online!
     
  8. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist Thread Starter



    :thumbsup:
     
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  9. Nobby

    Nobby Senior Member

    Location:
    France
    Good morning Mal!
    I love it when these old threads pop back up.

    I have a few Bowie compilations but never really took much notice of these minor differences in the way I do with The Beatles or Elton John.

    Having listened to the vinyl rip you linked to I realise that the only version I have on my server is the "quiet version", but there was a nagging in the back of my mind that I must have ZIGGY STARDUST on vinyl somewhere.

    Bowie's the kind of artist where I'll pick up used vinyl at boot sales and say I'll get round to listening to that one day.

    Well that day is today after discovering that I have a green label RCA International reissue that has the loud version of STARMAN on it. And it's as minty as you can get... Result.

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. karmaman

    karmaman Forum Resident

    worth mentioning that the loud Starman is standard on UK Ziggy vinyl from first issue right through to the 1984 picture disc. the International issue is circa '81.
     
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  11. jeff kleinberg

    jeff kleinberg Senior Member

    Location:
    Ct
    Does the new Ziggy reissue LP with the SACD have the loud or remixed version?
     
  12. Colocally

    Colocally One Of The New Wave Boys

    Location:
    Surrey BC.
  13. RL4L

    RL4L Forum Resident

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    If it's a consolation to anyone, I had a friend send me a rip of the version from NHC and it seems as if the loud mix will be restored!
     
  14. Laservampire

    Laservampire Down with this sort of thing

    Just listening to a rip of Starman from the "Nothing Has Changed" box and it sounds great. All the dynamics are intact too!

    Great to finally have a digital version of this mix.
     
  15. Nobby

    Nobby Senior Member

    Location:
    France
    Having returned to this thread a month or so ago, I've done some digging and come to the conclusion that the two versions of STARMAN are not different mixes.

    It's just that different Morse codes segments have been edited in.

    The first thing that stood out was the disappearance of the reverb from the guitar at 19". This happens on both "mixes".

    When I was needledropping my green label ZIGGY STARDUST LP (loud version of STARMAN) the spectral view (in Cool Edit Pro) "looked" as though there was and edit either side of the Morse code bits.

    So the only way to test my theory was to line up the two Morse codes from the loud version and hear what happens.

    The two Morse codes are lined up in Cool Edit, one on the left and one on the right. If there's anything common, it'll appear in the centre.

    You'll hear the Morse codes leap into mono proving that they are from the same part of the recording up to and including Bowie's "...there's a...".

    However, this happens with both the loud and the quiet versions.

    Hear how Bowie's "...there's a..." is identical (appears mono) in both the first and second morse code element for both the loud and quiet versions.

    LOUD

    QUIET

    So, IMHO, same mix, but different Morse code bits have been edited in.

    This may link in with post #2 where Ken Scott only remembers one mix being done.

    What d'ya reckon @Mal?
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2014
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  16. RL4L

    RL4L Forum Resident

    Location:
    James Brown Way
    ooh sciencey!
     
  17. karmaman

    karmaman Forum Resident

    while the UK versions have never sounded like other issues due to the rolled off EQ, the "loud/quiet mix" issue has only ever been in reference to the morse code section.
     
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  18. Mal

    Mal Phorum Physicist Thread Starter

    Makes sense :thumbsup:

    By this time, Ken Scott had developed his mixing technique involving mixing separate parts of songs independently and editing them together. It seems that, at some point, he assembled an 'alternate mix' of Starman with differently mixed 'morse code' sections (perhaps a discarded attempt at the master mix). Somehow, this 'alternate mix' was used for the US LP and became the standard mix post 1980.

    Why? Why not.

    Ken doesn't specifically remember making the 'alternate mix' but it's the simplest explanation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2014
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  19. cmcintyre

    cmcintyre Forum Resident

    This is why not:

    Referring to a very detailed post on the Illustrated DB Forum

    http://www.illustrated-db-discography.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2829

    which I wrote back in 2012 when the 40th Ziggy was released and people were pondering why the quiet "morse code" Starman, not the loud "morse code" was included, the matrix numbers for the individual songs, LP sides for both the US and UK first RCA issues indicate clearly that the originating Trident Studios in London prepared the quiet version for the LP and some time later the loud version was prepared for single release, and then someone in England substituted the LP version (quiet morse code) for the newer single version with the loud morse code for the UK release.

    Unlike the previous / first RCA album and 45 that had corresponding matrix numbers in US and UK, Ziggy didn't - both territories had LPs prepared from different tapes. Ziggy was an anomaly in this respect - the next few RCA LPs shared the same matrices in both the US and UK.

    Whilst I can't say technically how the change to Starman was performed - and possibly the idea of a Ken Scott edit is correct - the matrix numbers, as written on the Trident Studio's box (image in the 30th anniversary and on the forum link) and the relevant LPs and 45s tell the sequence of events, and which version was intended for the LP.

    "If" the two versions were prepared at the same time as the version used on the US LP, the version used on the single wasn't mastered and given a matrix number until a couple of months later, and that makes the single (and UK LP) the "alternative". In actuality all available evidence suggests that the production team "returned" to the studio to make the single version - it wasn't done at the same time as the quiet version.

    Basic sequence:

    *Ziggy LP prepared late 1971 (matrices APRS 6814/5)
    *Four tracks substituted for three new 1972 recordings, one predating Hunky Dory (It Ain't Easy (matrix) 4570, Suffragette City 4571 Rock'n' Roll Suicide 4572 and Starman 4573)
    *Tape sent to US Head Office (remember DB signed to US RCA, not UK) (copy retained by Trident***)
    *Starman is "altered" for single release - main difference is loud morse code section (Matrix 5767 - US 45)
    *Starman is mastered in UK and US for 45 release - seemingly separately given different edits and matrix numbers.
    *US master LP in 72, but do not change 1971 matrix numbers - sent out to most RCA affiliates worldwide
    *UK master LP in 72 (from different tape*** most likely using the retained copy - containing substituted Starman and undamaged Suffragette City) with 1972 matrix numbers (BGBS 0864/5). Used in some other territories.

    But no matter what the background story, it's great that at least one single edit of Starman is now finally available digitally.
     
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  20. botley

    botley Forum Resident

    Wow, I'm convinced. Amazing sleuthing! Thank you for settling this.
     
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