Stylus skipping across lead-in grooves

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Grateful Ed, Aug 20, 2017.

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  1. GuildX700

    GuildX700 Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    This, some records lead in groves suck.
     
  2. Cockroach

    Cockroach Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Visalia, CA
    If you ever find the solution, please post it. I have the same problem with the stylus slamming into the first track from the lead-in groove on some records. On others, it's just fine. If I cue just right at the beginning of the first track, it's just fine.
     
    Grateful Ed likes this.
  3. bluemooze

    bluemooze Senior Member

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    Re-check leveling with a record on the TT.

    Put a coaster or some playing cards or something under the left rear foot and see if it still happens.

    Good luck. :)
     
    Grateful Ed likes this.
  4. JohnO

    JohnO Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    That plus your lead-in problem really suggests the anti-skate is not set correctly. It may be "pre-set", but there is an adjustment for it somewhere inside, or there better be.
    The blank side vinyl is a good place to start for testing. A CD is worthless, it is too small. You could pick up an Laserdisc at a thrift shop, for hopefully $1, and rough test first with that, outer, inner, and middle. The drag is different than vinyl but not so much that such a test is worthless, it would be a good cheap start.
     
    Grateful Ed likes this.
  5. GuildX700

    GuildX700 Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    You don't want to dial in too much anti skating just to "fix" the lead in groove problem and have too much anti skating for the bulk of the record side. :agree:

    I set my anti skating based on L&R volume being equal and visually by seeing where the cantilever is in relation to it's normal dead center across a side of a record.

    Again, a lot of records lead in grooves suck, so I would never set anti skating by lead in groove issues.

    Little know fact is many records used to be made with the out ring curved up so when they were stacked on multiple play record changers the record falling onto the one on the platter did not scratch up the record currently on the platter by grinding against that record.

    I have even see that fact boasted about on some record sleeves decades ago.
     
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  6. missan

    missan Forum Resident

    Location:
    Stockholm
    It´s just so that with some lead in, combined with certain styli; the tracking becomes tricky.
     
    Grateful Ed likes this.
  7. Grateful Ed

    Grateful Ed Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Vermont
    I tried leveling the TT and table it's on with shims and even overcompensated on the back left corner.. still no luck..
     
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  8. Grateful Ed

    Grateful Ed Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Vermont
    But why would it still do this when I cue by hand? And why does it not so this when I drop into the middle of the record?

    I'll experiment more tonight.
     
  9. Grateful Ed

    Grateful Ed Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Vermont
    I'm now communicating with the guys at U-Turn about this. Their first suggestion was to lower VTF to 1.8g. No luck.

    When I get home I'll try to look for a "wad" on the stylus. Next I'll look for cantilever deflection at different points of a record. Then maybe see if I can find a record that this doesn't happen on. I wish I didn't sell the OM5E, so I could put that back on and test it. Maybe I'll try aligning to Stevenson to see if that changes anything?
     
    Manimal likes this.
  10. H8SLKC

    H8SLKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Let us know how U-Turn does with this. When my Orbit was brand new, the 2m blue that was mounted would sometimes skip awkwardly to the first groove only on certain records. Later, after trying other carts I realized that the 2m blue was just not great in that respect and other carts did not do that, and the Orbit tonearm/2m blue combo seemed less likely to make that jump with more use over time. FWIW, my Orbit has become a favorite machine. It's simple, cost-effective and just works. If I had it to do over I would perhaps not buy a more expensive turntable that I also own, and would have simply bought another Orbit. I could have saved many hundreds and I have moments of wishing I had done just that.
     
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  11. Thorensman

    Thorensman Forum Resident

    Oh, it does it when you cue manually.
    Is there a clearance between underside
    Of tonearm and cue guide.
    If there is then it is likely related to the
    Arm in respect to biasing . It obviously is not the old thread and weight system.
    Likely then to be spring or magnetic.
    Sone put a twist or bias on the tonearm wires.
     
    Grateful Ed likes this.
  12. Grateful Ed

    Grateful Ed Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Vermont
    There is plenty of clearance below the cue and tonearm when the cue is completely lowered. The antiskate is indeed a spring somewhere inside / under the tonearm pivot enclosure.
     
  13. H8SLKC

    H8SLKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Sometimes these problems can be related to new cartridges. It there was no issue with the previous cartridge, then I would give the new cartridge some time. I have noted that brand new styli can sometimes need some time in use before they seem to track properly. Is the cart/stylus brand new?
     
  14. BayouTiger

    BayouTiger Forum Resident

    I've fought with this on my SME V arm more than most. Found that the A/S was best at about half the tracking force. Funny the arm I found most forgiving of this was the VPI JMW9 which has no A/S skate adjust except the coil of the wire.
     
  15. Grateful Ed

    Grateful Ed Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Vermont
    Ben Carter from U-Turn doesn't think it's an antiskate issue. He recommended trying a different cartridge to try to isolate the issue. He also agreed that it could be gunk on the stylus or a defective stylus (I think it's unlikely that the stylus is defective). He also said that certain styli just don't do very well on lead-in grooves, and that dropping carefully by hand into a groove is often the best solution.

    The effective mass of the Orbit OA2 tonearm is 14g. Looking at vinylengine's resonance frequency evaluator, that gives me a resonance frequency of 8Hz. It's on the low end, but still in the "green range."
     
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  16. Grateful Ed

    Grateful Ed Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Vermont
    The cartridge isn't brand new, but certainly has under 100 hours on it.
     
    H8SLKC likes this.
  17. You've discovered one of the problems with the U-turn TT, non-adjustable anti-skate. For best results, use the cartridge it came with.
    The skipping in on the lead-in is a difficult area. Many LP's have a raised vinyl dam. If you are having this skipping problem on a flat-profile record, then the need for anti-skate adjustment is even more apparent. Have you tried contacting U-turn about your problem, maybe they have a solution. I've heard they are good with their customer service. Good luck!
     
    H8SLKC likes this.
  18. Grateful Ed

    Grateful Ed Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Vermont
    So far U-Turn doesn't think it's an antiskate issue.. I elaborated on their response a couple posts above.
     
  19. Grateful Ed

    Grateful Ed Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Vermont
    Everyone points to antiskate, but I read this thread - this person had very high end equipment and said no bias adjustments were able to solve his issue. Actually a different cartridge solved his problem, but that doesn't really help me..
     
  20. Grateful Ed

    Grateful Ed Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Vermont
    The other thing that makes me skeptical of a bias issue is that (after having a closer look tonight), I can't detect any cantilever deflection in multiple places while playing a record.
     
  21. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bentonville AR
    Everyone thinks it's anti-skate and most likely is.

    Back when my VPI scout was new I used have this issue frequent. I correctly set the azimuth using a test record and a online oscilloscope program and it rarely happens now.
     
  22. Manimal

    Manimal Forum Resident

    Location:
    Southern US
    You re-checked VTF?
     
  23. Ghostworld

    Ghostworld Senior Member

    Location:
    US
    It's not anti-skate. Anti-skate doesn't do this. Your stylus is likely shot. As ghost writer said check your azimuth. Just eyeball it make sure it's parallel to the record .
     
    Fishoutofwater likes this.
  24. Ghostworld

    Ghostworld Senior Member

    Location:
    US

    Bad advice. Cheap curing levers are usually lubed with damping grease so that they drop slowly. These are special damping greases. Throw oil in the mix and you're going to ruin the damping Greece and from then on The lever will drop too fast unless you completely disassemble the queuing level and re-grease it with the proper grease
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2017
  25. It feels like a shot stylus or cart to me. I think you need to try a different cart. I see no other solution
     
    bluemooze, arisinwind and Ghostworld like this.
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