Subwoofer to match Klipsch La Scalas?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Garthb, Jun 15, 2018.

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  1. Garthb

    Garthb Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    portland,oregon
    I'm totally clueless where to start, heck, I don't even know how to connect a subwoofer to my amp! Anybody have any recommendations for used subwoofers that will be a good pairing with the vintage Klipsch La Scalas? Thanks!
     
  2. dmckean

    dmckean Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego, CA, USA
    I'd recommend a horn loaded sub like this:

    Yorkville

    Direct radiating subs are unlikely to blend with the LaScala's bass. You'll want to adjust the crossover point to be where the LaScala's naturually start to roll off.
     
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  3. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    All that I know is that you will need a 'fast' (excellent transient response) one.
     
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  4. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    Direct radiating subs will NOT properly blend with La Scala's. You want to crossover at 60Hz.

    It's my main sub. Driven by a Crown XTi-2000, it delivers 1,600-Watts in bridged mono mode.

    The UCS-1 can sustain a SPL of 133dB, continuous program music.

    [​IMG]


    Quite right! The Yorkville UCS-1 is one that does. It is a 15" passive horn loaded commercial sub. La Scala's are commercial horn loaded speakers.

    [​IMG]

    I recommend buying a used processor, like an Emotive UMC-1, or a UMC-200. These can be had in the $200-$400 price range.

    I use my processor and UCS-1 for both HT and stereo.

    For stereo, I take an interconnect cable from the preamp output to one of the unused inputs on the processor. This way, I can use the processor's bass management feature to route anything from 40Hz. to the LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel and set the crossover slope at 24dB.

    The LFE out, is connected to the bridged mono input of the Crown XTi-2000, then on to the UCS-1.

    My Crown is located in a 19" rack mount, behind the TV. I use a RF wireless AC remote from the hardware store to remotely turn the Crown on and off. I leave the volume control knob turned all the way up.

    I now can use the volume on the processor's remote control to adjust the volume level of the sub, relative to the volume level on the preamp.

    Because sub-bass is all over the place on sources, you will really appreciate the ability to adjust the sub's volume up and down easily.
     
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  5. jcmusic

    jcmusic Forum Resident

    Location:
    Terrytown, La.
    Well I am using two SVS SB2000's with my Khorns with great success, my system is fully active though so i can adjust the delays to match them up perfectly...
     
  6. Garthb

    Garthb Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    portland,oregon
    Ok, now I'm really down the rabbit hole, because I have no idea what you just said! So, is this what you are saying:

    1. Buy something called a "processor".
    2. Hook up IC's from preamp to processer.

    then what?
     
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  7. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    That is because K-horns are completely way different speakers than La Scala's. K-Horns were designed to be used within a home audio environment. La Scala's, though having the same components as K-horns, are entirely different speakers, built originally as a high quality portable PA speaker for commercial use, outside of the home.

    La Scala's have good strong efficient bass, being a smaller folded bass horn design, but their bass extension only plays down to about 60Hz. after, that, their LF extension, drops off like a rock being tossed off a mountain.

    Even the large Altc A7 cabinet that is sitting to the right of the Yorkville UCS-1, will only play down to about 47Hz at it's -3Db point (even though it will play lower). For this reason, I set the processor to send any information below 40Hz through the processor's LFE's channel to power the UCS-1.

    Limiting my discussion to large speaker companies and speaker designs that have been around for some time, two speaker cabinet designs are foremost in my mind, when it comes down to deep natural bass production on their own. They are Tanoy Westminster's and the large cabinet K-horns. Both of which can play down to twenty cycles.

    So, with the K-horns, there is no need to create sub-bass that is not already there, they are being used to augment the sub-bass that is. Which will be helpful to reproduce powerful bass from the LFE's channel in HT or for certain types of music with deep synthesized bass, such as Dubstep.

    One of my favorite tracks for demonstrating sub-bass is an original song by Lindsey Stirling, Crystallize., for which she performs a Dubstep version of her song, in this beautifully watchable YouTube video.

    What make this video more effective than most, for sub demonstration purposes, is that Lindsey plays the solo violin while performing. The violin, naturally, does not present bass, let alone sub-bass.

    "The low G (G3 open) on a violin is around 196-200 Hz. ranging to a high note of 4500 CPS. Some players cut the top end off at 10,000 but most of this end of the spectrum is part of the harmonic content of notes at or below 4500 CPS. "

    So there are contrasts through this video. When it is just the violin playing, she is probably not going lower that 250-350 Hz., When the "Dubstep" parts kick in, the sub-bass plays really deep and can really pressurize a room, with a sub, like the UCS-1.

    When I want people to understand what sub-bass actually is, I put on this YouTube video and play it for them. Then they have a point of reference.

    This is far better than playing something that is all bass and sub-bass heavy. It really sets the sub apart, where listener's can clearly experience the delineation of true sub-bass from ordinary LF, which is not really represented here.

     
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  8. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    F.W.I.W., Even with a sub playing with La Scala's, you might need to increase the crossover point to 80Hz, to get a good head start on the sub-bass part and getting it to more seamlessly blend in.
     
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  9. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    A processor is a separate box that you can add to your regular existing stereo and is used primarily to decode surround sound, such as in a 5.1 surround sound environment.

    You would use a surround sound processor in place of a regular AV receiver. When you are playing movies on disc, you need a way to decode the surround sound channels. Those being the front left and right channels, the rear left and rear channels, the center channel and the sub.

    On a surround sound system, the sub is a special output called the LFE (meaning low frequency effects) channel.

    When the movie studio's create a mix-down, they specifically send low frequency sound information to the LFE channel.

    The beauty of using a processor in your system, is that you can add it as a source to your other already existing stereo components.

    I use an Emotiva original XPA-2, 250-Watt (into 8-Ohms) amplifier (lower right shelf), to run one of my pair of tower speakers, which are located on either side of the TV. So, my front tower speakers and my front amplifier are the same for both two channel stereo and HT (Home Theater) use.

    I use a separate power amplifier to control the rear surrounds.

    My latest upgrades are an Oppo UDP-203 player which fits nicely directly under the TV.

    The processor is sitting on the bottom left shelf, just above a Emotiva XPA-100, 250-Watt, monoblock amplifier, which runs the center channel speaker, located directly above.

    It is connected to my latest Emotiva MC-700 4K processor (that replaced my previous UPC-1 Emotiva processor), by an HDMI cable.

    [​IMG]

    When you set up a surround sound processor, it has built-in test tones, that you can use to individually measure the output of, with a decibel meter and independently adjust the volume of each individual processor channel, so that all of the channels are at the same relative volume level.

    You can also adjust the distance to a main central listening spot, so the the processor will automatically control the time delay's so that you are receiving sound from all six (on a 5.1 surround system) speakers at the same time.

    Another important feature of a surround sound processor is referred to as bass management. Here's how it works (this is an important thing to understand, per my recommendations for your needs). I have a pair of large front towers, at their -3dB point, they can play down to 40-Hz. (cycles per-second). I have a smaller pair of rear speakers (which are referred to as the "surrounds" in a 5.1 system, in a 7.1 system, the surrounds are on your sides and the rear channel speakers, if present are simply the left and right rear speakers). My rear towers play down to 60-Hz. My smaller center channel speaker plays down to 80-Hz.

    So there is no point being served by sending a full frequency audio signal (down to 20Hz) to each of these speakers, because, below the minimum -3dB's indicated, the speaker is not able to faithfully reproduce the necessary LF (Low Frequency) sounds.

    Here is where processor Bass Management comes into play. You are able to direct the processor to send information for each speaker/channel, information that is below what that speaker can faithfully reproduce. The processor electronically separates out anything below 40Hz., for the front towers and sends this audio information along with the standard low frequency effects directly to the LFE channel and keeps all of the rest of the full range information intact and directs it right along to the front main speakers.

    The bass management cuts out nay frequency below 80Hz. from the center channel and sends that LF information directly to the LFE's channel, and so on for the rear speakers.

    Noting, While I have already sent the sub to crossover anything below 40Hz to the sub, bass management augments this by sending the unwanted LF information, along to the sub along with the LFE's channel information.

    End of part one, to be continued. Please read and digest this part first.

    S&G
     
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  10. Garthb

    Garthb Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    portland,oregon
    What I'm finding with this hobby is that when I read the amazingly detailed post just before this one from @SandAndGlass, I'm astounded to realize I understand less than 5% of what he said. The paradigm question I have is: how does one truly learn about this stuff when I do not even understand the language? @SandAndGlass gave me a PhD level answer but I'm in grade school! I'll have to keep going back to basics...
     
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  11. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    That is OK, I will continue to help you understand what I am trying to say.

    What did you get from my previous post? Help me understand where you are at, then we can proceed from there. :)

    Pretty much of everything that I do is trying different ideas that pop up and I bumble my through, trying different options until I find something that is workable for that situation.

    What I am attempting to do is to help get you there without having to go through everything that I have gone through to get where I am.

    A lot of things I do are not workable for most people and in most home situations, but they do work well in the environment that I have in my listening space.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
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  12. head_unit

    head_unit Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles CA USA
    First, tell us specifically why you want to do this? You're missing some low organ pipes? Movie crashes don't sound right? Bass sounds overloaded? What are you lacking? That will help us advise.

    Here's how frequencies work: the lowest note on a bass guitar is a bit above 40 Hz. Little music has content below 40 Hz. An octave below that bass string would be 20 Hz, half the frequency, or 8 white keys on a piano; it's rare to have content that low though some specialized stuff (like organ, large drums in an orchestra, movie explosions) does.

    @SandAndGlass says your La Scalas die below 60 Hz, which seems about right to me, meaning that some chunk of music's lowest parts won't get reproduced properly by them. Due to their horn loaded design, you cannot "fix" this with equalization. (Horns are wonderous beasts for what they are good at, but based mostly on size a horn can only play to a certain low frequency and below that "chokes off" kinda).*

    Bass management just manages where the bass goes:
    - Cuts out the low bass from your main speakers and amps (so they don't strain to reproduce stuff they can't)
    - Cuts the high stuff out from the subwoofer (because that coming out of the sub will sound weird).
    Simple in theory but unfortunately audio hardware can rarely do this correctly. It's not going to work properly with your amp. The only thing you can do is add a subwoofer, and connect it to the speaker outputs, adding low bass. This still leaves the main amp and LaScalas straining to play back very low stuff, limiting overall performance. I have that situation in my kid's car, and ended up adding a sub, cutting the bass control back some, and boosting the subwoofer's gain (volume) control. Not an ideal situation but pragmatic. It sounds way better than no sub. In your case, it might sound better or might sound worse...so again, why do you want to do this?


    *If the woofer chamber of the LaScala is not stuffed-and I have no idea about that-there is *some* chance that playing with fiberglass stuffing could extend the bass some. Difficult to get at I would think.
     
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  13. Garthb

    Garthb Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    portland,oregon
    Thx @head_unit @SandAndGlass, that is very helpful! My goal: have the bass in music (mostly vinyl, some cd's) gain emotional impact, right now the bass in Metallica's "Nothing Else Matters" for example is "nice" but lacks oompf. Dave Brubeck's "Take Five" also has crisp, clean drums, but lacks emotional impact.

    What you are both describing as the Lascalas dying below 60 hz resonates with me, as the mids sound great and then kind of lacks depth in the drums.

    I also pushed the speakers back into the corners today, which seemed to widen the soundstage and slightly improve the bass (in the klipsch forum someone said the khorns and lascalas are made for corners, seems to be correct in my room).

    Thanks for the description, it's all starting to come together as I'm learning the vocabulary.

    A friend of mine who's an expert audio builder/engineer is coming over to test the room with equipment and help me with subwoofer setup, I'll let you know what I figure out
     
  14. Garthb

    Garthb Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    portland,oregon
    Next stop: how do I read this graph comparing two kinds of subwoofers?


    [​IMG]
     
  15. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    K-horns were specifically designed to be in corners. They are a large folded horn bass cabinet, that is only exceeded (speaking of vintage speaker designs here) by the Tannoy Westminster SE, which is three to four times the price.

    A La Scala was primarily designed as a portable P.A. speaker, with the same internal components as the big K-horns.

    The K-horns use the actual room corners as part of their bass horn design, sound exits from the rear of the K-horns and uses the corner walls to further acoustically extend the bass horn into the listening room.

    The La Scala, being a P.A. speaker, which is designed to project sound directly into an audience, is not effected by corner placement, the way that a K-horn is. It is effected by a room boundary effect of being in an "eighth space". When you listen to your speaker sitting on the floor (I do hope that your La Scala's are NOT up on some stupid stands), you are listening to them in what is referred to as "half space", when you position them against the rear boundary wall, you are now placing them in what is referred to as "quarter space" and you gain and additional +3dB of sound reinforcement, mainly in the bass region. When you place them (or any other "normal" speaker) in a corner, you are now placing that speaker in "eighth space", where here again, you will benefit from a boost of and additional +3dB of efficiency boost, again, mainly in the bass area.

    As you are probably finding out (or eventually will), that La Scala's suck at bass below 60Hz. But, above 60Hz. they will kick you in the chest like a mule with drum kit's between 60 and 300 Hz. Just turn up your La Scalla's and listen to some drum set's up loud. Bass drum's and floor tom's are usually the deepest drum sound that your La Scala's will be dealing with. While some venture down into the 50Hz. range, you will experience some low frequency roll off, but they don't completely stop producing bass at 60Hz, but as you dip below that point, bass response falls rapidly off.

    But, turn up your La Scala's, and while you won't have much of that deep bass form 40-60 Hz and you will have zero sub-bass, you will have speakers that really kick from bass from 60Hz. north.

    But, there is only one problem doing this. And that is, when you turn up the volume on La Scala's, the squaker horn and super tweeter, will take the top of your head off and leave you with permanent hearing damage. This will occur mainly when listening to loud or bright source material in the 1kHz. to 5kHz. range.

    At the end of the day, La Scala's are mainly designed for PA applications and even then, now days P.A. amplification is mainly SS which is really a bad match for speakers which have an efficiency rating of around 105dB. They are even more efficient than the Altec A7's, which have a maximum efficiency of 103dB.

    In other words, they are never going to sound like A7's or K-horns. The K-horns play so deep, down to 20 cycles, that you don't need a sub. The A7's play down to about 47Hz. at their -3dB point and benefit greatly with the addition of a commercial horn loaded sub.

    The La Scala's will never get there, it doesn't matter what kind of sub you put in the chain.

    Back to the colored graphs, it is better that you don't read them or even try to pretend that they will somehow magically be the ones that work seamlessly with your La Scala's.

    I don't want to be a bearer of bad news, but as you have been previously advised by other forum members, two I seem to recall, two who have posted before me.

    Let's see;

    The first poster suggested a Yorkville UCS-1 commercial horn loaded sub.

    The second poster mentioned that you can not match a regular powered home sub woofer with La Scala's, because they are no fast enough.

    As it happens, I happen to have a rather unique pair of La Scala's, which other than the custom cabinets I have decided to keep original. Who knows, maybe that will change, but only if I can find the time to think any upgrade fully through. Until such time, if any, they will remain in their original legacy condition.

    I have also played those La Scala's with the same exact horn loaded sub as the first poster had recommended for you. They meet the criteria that the second poster gave you some inside about, what to avoid using (which seems to be a couple that you have under your current consideration).

    Here is what I have found out, from personal experience. La Scala's are ultra efficient speakers. Not many speakers on the market are more efficient then the La Scala's. Most notably Avantgarde Duo's, which start north of $25k these days and go way up from there.

    If you read the posts, there are a couple of forum members that own these speakers and have them paired with low powered SET or OTL class amplifier's.

    The good news is that La Scala's can benefit from a ALK engineering crossover upgrade. That upgrade will allow you to pad down energy to the squaker and HF horns, to better balance the bass in relation to the HF.

    You have some beautiful Triode equipment, which is well suited to your La Scala's and your Cornwall's.

    Your Cornwall's sound nice, right, and they should, and they do. But your La Scala's will never sound as good as your Cornwall's, except at very low volume levels, which is where La Scala's shine. They ave very clean and detailed at low volumes.

    Here's an experiment you can try without spending a dime or "modifying" your speakers.

    Take some Kleenex tissue and fold it a few times and place it over the super tweeter and hold it in place with a strip of blue painter's tape.

    Take an old t-shirt and place in the loosely in the mouth of your squaker horn, this will naturally attenuate the HF from both of these horns, that will allow you to turn up the La Scala's enough to bring out the bass that they naturally have, but without the HF taking your head off.

    If the HF attenuation is not sufficient, use more Kleenex over the super tweeter and cram the t-shirt further down the mouth of your squaker, but not so far as to touch or damage the diaphragm on your squaker horn.

    Suggest you show your forum thread to your audio engineer friend when he comes over for a visit.

    S&G
     
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  16. Garthb

    Garthb Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    portland,oregon
    @SandAndGlass WOW! thanks for the Phd, I'm re-reading for the third time to make sure I get it, and I really appreciate the detailed information about the Lascalas. One takeaway: I should buy the Cornscala-Wall?
     
  17. Garthb

    Garthb Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    portland,oregon
    @SandAndGlass Ok, emailed Al for ordering instructions on the ALK Universal, will try the t-shirt/kleenex experiment later today. Engineer friend is bringing over vintage Velodyne sub to try out at some point (with Dayton Audio SPA250 plate amp). Send pics of your LS!
     
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  18. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    That I cannot say as I have never seen or listened to one in person.

    What do you think about your Cornwall's?

    Are you pleased with them? Do you like how they sound? Are you pleased with their bass response? Is their bass sufficient to pressurize your room.

    I don't think these hybrid designs are the best for the money. I am more along the lines of having custom cabinets built to fit your needs and to buy what ever components you need to fit the cabinets.

    Having both vintage Altec's and vintage Klipsch speakers, I think the build quality of Altec horns and drivers are superior to anything that Klipsch produces.

    For the home, I would build a tall rectangular simple bass reflex cabinet, front ported and put in two 15" bass drivers. Buy a couple of original Altec 511B horns. You can get the other stuff from Great Plains Audio. When the real "Altec Lansing" ceased business, employee's that left the company, formed Great Plains. Basically, they are authorized to use the Altec name in connection with legacy Altec products.

    Great Plains has partnered with a company in Atlanta, Vintage Speaker Revival that builds custom speaker enclosures. You could use one of their current designs or have them build to suit your specific needs.

    You might want to check out ALK Engineering, he builds upgraded crossovers for legacy Klipsch products. I use his crossovers on the A7's.

    The crossover in front is an ALK crossover designed for Klipsch legacy speakers, but because the HF horn on the A7's is crossed over to the bass speaker at 500-Cycles, the ALK crossovers that were designed for Klipsch, will work fine in this application.

    In the upper right corner of the crossover board is an autoformer. It performs two important functions. You will note that there are different jumpers on the autoformer. These are to make adjustments to lower the energy going to the HF horns, so that the volume of the HF sound coming from the horns, matches the level of sound that is coming from the bass speaker.

    Before you start messing around with subs and other cabinet design modifications, you would benefit from replacing your stock crossovers with ALK crossovers that are specifically designed for legacy Klipsch speakers like your La Scala's.

    In the K-horn, there are big HF horns to match the huge folded corner horn bass cabinet. When you take the same components and place them in a much smaller bass cabinet of the La Scala's, you are going to have to much HF and not enough bass to give you clean natural sound.

    Using ALK crosovers, you use different taps on the autoformer to reduce the energy to the squaker horn and super tweeter, then you can turn your La Scala's up and get some more bass out of them.

    [​IMG]

    Photo from the ALK Engineering web site.

    [​IMG]

    From the ALK Engineering web site.

    "The loudspeakers Mr. Klipsch designed are among the finest ever made. His horn-loaded woofers in particular are first class. We don't mess with them! No changes of any kind should be made. Don't try to put a better woofer driver in them. Don't stuff the back chamber with damping material or do any other kind of changes. You will be taking a step backwards!

    However, some of these speakers have been in use for as long as 50 years. The state of the art has moved on making the high end ready for some improvements. The midrange (Squawker) horn and crossover networks in particular could use some improvements. To a lesser degree, the tweeter can also be improved. The upgrades we offer will make your Klipsch heritage speaker second to none!"


    The La Scala and the K-horns crossover to the woofer at 400-Hz. But I would recommend, a crossover frequency at 500-Hz. That will remove some energy from the squaker horn and send it to the bass cabinet.

    Basically, it is the same crossover that I use on the A7's. ALK refer's to it as the AP12-500, it is a gentle-slope crossover and are built to order for $450 a pair. It generally takes about two months from the time that they are ordered until the time that you receive them.

    The other important aspect of ALK crossovers are that they provide a constant impedance to your amplifier, which is extremely important when using tube amps.

    A speaker's actual impedance changes with frequency, changes in impedance seen at the amplifier will cause the amplifier to deliver different amounts of power to the speaker and that will vary with the changes of impedance at different frequencies. This will result in different volume levels at different frequencies, which effects the balance of sound.

    While your speaker's impedance will still continue to change, depending on frequency, your amp will be seeing a constant 8-Ohms. Therefore, your amplifier will deliver the same amount of power, without regard to frequency.

    Changing out you crossover to an improved crossover design will greatly benefit the performance of your La Scala's.

    Once you have your La Scala's finely tuned, then you can work on adding a horn loaded sub to your horn loaded speaker.

    You will also need a pair of ALK's AP15-6000 crossovers to crossover from the squaker horn to the tweeter at 6-kHz. They are $390 a pair.

    [​IMG]

    ALK has their own take on the Cornscala-wall design.

    From Al Klappenberger;

    ** The CornScala **

    This seems to be becoming a very popular project in the DIY community. It is the result of combining the WORST features of the Cornwall and the La Scala speakers into one. The La Scala has the BAD K400 squawker horn from the Klipschorn and the Cornwall has the higher distortion direct radiator from the Cornwall. So, the result is a speaker with the harsh midrange of the Klipschorn and the higher distortion bass of the Cornwall. It will go down to 30 Hz though, and this is probably what it's all about!
    [​IMG]

    HOWEVER: With a few variations on the theme you can come up with a very good speaker. The very first thing to realize is that the K33 woofer as used in the Cornwall will operate higher than the 400 Hz upper limit of the Klipschorn woofer horn. This allows you to move to any of a long list of better mid-range (squawker) horns. Even with a 400 Hz crossover, anyone who uses the K400 horn for anything but a door-stop is crazy! It's a headache maker.

    These are ALK's recommendations for a good Cornscala:

    • WOOFER: Use a Klipsch K33. This will make it compatible with my networks and with the Cornwall woofer box. Put the woofer driver in a box having the same shape and volume and the same port configuration as the Cornwall and seal it up. Remember that the Cornwall squawker horn takes up some internal volume. Make it very stiff with lots of internal bracing. Do NOT put any other components in the woofer compartment. Put everything else in a separate open back compartment above the woofer box. Make it detachable so you can replace it and upgrade it over time. If you put anything else in the woofer compartment you are stuck with it and you make more problems with air leaks.
    • CROSSOVER: Cross over from the woofer to the squawker between 500 and 700 Hz depending on the squawker horn you choose. The woofer can go far higher so it is not a factor in choosing the crossover frequency.
      • Some crossover options:
      • The most cost effective option. The Cornscala-Wall universal.
      • For improved midrange and bass clarity. One of the AP12-xxx series networks paired with the AP15-6000.
      • For improved clarity over the entire audio range. The AP12-xxx series networks paired with the ES5800.
      • The ultimate in clarity and stereo image. An Extreme-slope series network paired with the ES5800.
    • SQUAWKER HORN: Do NOT use the Klipsch K400! I suggest a 1-inch wood Tractrix such as the Fastrac Cornwall or a used Altec 511B or 811B from eBay. If you go with the smaller 811B horn, cross over at 700 Hz. Better yet would be the 2-inch Fastrac Eliptrac 400.
    • SQUAWKER DRIVER: The Klipsch K55 or Atlas PD-5VH is fine, but the 600 or 700 Hz crossover allows the choice of may good drivers. A few possibilities are the JBL 2426h on a 1-inch horn or you can even go 2-way with the B&C DE85TN on a 2-inch horn.
    • TWEETER: Any tweeter you like is fine, but we suggest our own Eliptrac HF with the B&C DE10 driver. With a detachable top compartment you can change tweeters at any time.
    Check out these and other things on AL's web site.

    S&G
     
  19. Garthb

    Garthb Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    portland,oregon
    @SandAndGlass thank you! Just received a response from ALK regarding crossovers, ALK recommended exactly what you did, so I called Al and ordered it:

    "The CSW will replace the "AA", but the best bang for the buck is the
    AP12-500 and ES5800 set."
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
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  20. Garthb

    Garthb Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    portland,oregon
    @SandAndGlass Al says I need a crossover for the sub to the integrated amp, but since my amp does not have a subwoofer slot, I have no idea how to do this...
     
  21. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    OK, pictures in this post. But first, here is a funny little thing that I came across with earlier today.

    I was doing this specific google search: legacy la scala crossover frequency specs

    If you clock on my link, scroll down the page and you will find your thread has come up in the search engine results and your thread is just a few days old.

    Subwoofer to match Klipsch La Scalas? | Steve Hoffman Music Forums

    I thought that this was pretty funny in an unusual sort of way. :laugh:

    I had glass cut to protect the tops of the cabinets. I'm using this La Scala along with a modern day Klipsch WF-35 in the left rear corner for HT and stereo. I am currently using a Pair of Klipsch Icon WF-35's for the rear channels, but one corner is farther away from my listening position, so I connected this cabinet in parallel with the WF-35 in that corner.

    The second picture at the top of the first page is showing the other La Scala, which is on the living room side of the curtain and not currently in the system. I have the Rega RP3 turntable sitting on top of that La Scala cabinet.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

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    On the bottom bass cabinet, the speaker grills on the right and left side are also removable.

    These are not residential La Scala's. They are commercial black plywood cabinets which are better reinforced and have less cabinet resonance than the home versions. For now, other than the custom Baltic Birch outside cabinet's, they are entirely stock.

    [​IMG]

    Here is the left rear corner, from a HT prospective. The top of the La Scala, that is connected to the WF-35 (in the upper left hand corner), is at the bottom right, where you can see just a bit of the top.

    [​IMG]

    On the right back of the credenza, to the left of the yellow cap Kosher Coke, is an original salesman's model of an Altec Lansing A4 theater speaker cabinet.

    I also have a large Polk active sub sitting on the floor next to the La Scala, to give some extra bass energy to this area of the room.

    To the left of where I am shooting this picture, is the front door of the motel.
     
  22. masterbucket

    masterbucket Senior Member

    Location:
    Georgia US
    Klipsch's and Kosher Cokes...…..a winning combination!!:bdance:
     
    SandAndGlass and Garthb like this.
  23. Garthb

    Garthb Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    portland,oregon
    Klipsch, Kosher cokes, and a Jefferson clock!
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
  24. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    You amp does not need to have a sub-woofer output. most stereo amps do not.

    In my system, I use a Peachtree iNova (bottom integrated amp) for my system's central point of control.

    I don't use its power amplifier section, I use all external tube and SS amps for that purpose.

    I use it for it's ESS Saber DAC (a couple of generations old), as a source input selector for both analog and digital inputs and Class "A" SS preamp.

    You can do what I do, I take the amps preamp output (the volume level of the preamp output will change as you raise and lower the system volume level), and send it into a used Emotiva processor, a UMC-1 or a UMC-200. The UMC-1 should be no more than $200-$250 on eBay, the UMC-200 (a later model), should be around $300-$350.

    By sending the full range signal into one of the processors analog inputs, you can use the processor's bass management feature to electronically divide the frequency's, so that anything below a certain frequency, that you specify, will go through the processor's LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel.

    The LFE channel is fed into an inexpensive Crown XTi-2000, which you set to summed mono, which will give you 1,600-Watts to power your passive commercial horn loaded sub.

    [​IMG]
     
  25. Garthb

    Garthb Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    portland,oregon
    @SandAndGlass No surprise, you totally lost me (or I am just plain lost). Here is why:

    1. I have no idea how to "take the amps preamp output, and send it into a used Emotiva processor".
    2. No idea where/how to hookup an Emotiva processor, or even know what it is.
    3. I have no idea what this sentence means:

    "By sending the full range signal into one of the processors analog inputs, you can use the processor's bass management feature to electronically divide the frequency's, so that anything below a certain frequency, that you specify, will go through the processor's LFE (Low Frequency Effects) channel."

    4. Nor do I know what this means:

    "The LFE channel is fed into an inexpensive Crown XTi-2000, which you set to summed mono, which will give you 1,600-Watts to power your passive commercial horn loaded sub."

    So, no need to explain it, because I'm not going to be able to figure it out.

    Here's what I'm going to do:

    1. Hookup vintage subwoofer.
    2. Switch out stock to ALK crossover.
    3. Stop.

    Sincerely,

    Garth the Slow Adult Audiophile
     
    SandAndGlass likes this.
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