Subwooofer review pair of REL 212SE – with horns!

Our host has been asking about subwoofer recommendations. I’ve got a firm recommendation, based on a specific set of requirements which have given me a really good idea of what these particular subs - a pair of REL212SE’s - are capable of doing. I believe what I have learned would help anyone interested in sub-woofer quality to make an informed decision.
Apologies in advance for the length of this. I'm trying to provide enough info to be helpful. NB I have no financial interest in REL or the dealer mentioned. I'm just a punter with a slightly unusual requirement paying for my subs and thinking the experience might help the group. I'm in the UK.

So, I’m coming at the subwoofer problem from the point of view of running ludicrously efficient Avantgarde Trios – 108db from 1 watt, really dynamic and delicate, but they only go down to 100Hz- driven by a 5w Tron PX25 single ended triode amp. The rest of the system is a Verdier Platine, Graham Phantom 2 and Transfiguration Proteus front end with a Tron Nucleus pre. This is in a dedicated room 28 x 23 x 8 feet. I listen to 95% LP’s, anything from dub reggae to Schubert lieder via the Who and Zep, so the subs have to be able to both integrate well and reinforce the bottom end sound.

I was previously using my 15 year old Avantgarde Sub 225’s which have come to the end of their life and really aren’t up to the task of driving that size of room. As is well documented elsewhere, with the Avantgarde horns (& Trios especially) subwoofer integration to the main speakers is the biggest challenge in getting them to work well. Although I found balancing placement in the room and placement relative to the main speaker helped (a whole different topic) you could always hear where the 225’s cut in, the bass having a different character and being noticeably slower.
I’m aware Avantgarde have released two updated versions of subwoofers after mine. I’ve heard the Avantgarde SUB 230’s which go down further and are a bit quicker but not good enough for the money, IMO.


So what about the REL’s?

For those who don’t know them the REL212SE’s have 2 12” drivers pointing forward with a 12” passive radiator on the back and another passive radiator pointing down. Yep, 4 12” cones. These are controlled by an integrated 1kw Class D amp in each sub. Controls on the back are a variable cross over point, phase inversion switch and a volume control. For more info https://rel.net/shop/subwoofers/serie-s/212se/

So that’s 2 x 1kw = 2kw of sub-woofer amplification to be integrated with 2 x 5w of single ended amp. Using subs of this size in a pair might be a little bit unusual. I was told that trying to marry a pair of big subs to a 5w amp and 108db horns is really unusual but this set up does tell you everything about what the subs are actually capable of doing. For a two channel audio set up the bass extension part is easy: The challenge is getting seamless integration and delicacy.

I bought them through a dealer called Fanthorpes in the UK, supported by Rob Hunt the UK sales manager for REL. These were set up at home by Rob, mostly with a couple of CD’s which he brought with him, where he was looking for consistent bass tonality and volume across the pieces of music. From me I chose a Schubert leider LP of Peter Schreier singing Die Schone Mullerin on Eterna, Thin Lizzy’s Nightlife on Vertigo, and Nick Cave The Boatmans Call on Mute and War The World is a Ghetto. Not exactly bass extravaganza’s but I know them all well.
NB I’m purposely not saying anything about the set up process because I’m trying to keep this to a reasonable length and its already too long. Just believe me when I say that subwoofer set up is everything and the REL process works. I can say more about it if anyone is interested.


And the sound?

I was not and am not interested in lots of bass at the expense of anything else. Yes I was expecting more bass than I had before but I wanted speed and subtlety and integration more than quantity. - This is vinyl, right?

Obviously as you would expect the bass is far better, more weight and definition, with notes starting and stopping far more readily. On about three quarters of my records, even many of those which I didn’t think had much bass, I don’t just hear the bass now but can feel low bass what’s there through my chest and the floor. So the room is being driven and it’s going down further more easily. There is noticeably less overhang, which I wasn’t even aware was an issue. Equally, some LP’s which I thought had good bass simply have bass which only goes down so far. They sound OK but not great.

But interestingly the improvement isn’t limited to the bass. What the REL’s have done is added a whole swathe of harmonic information and clarity to the midrange which I wasn’t even aware was missing. This means the overall sound is significantly more dynamic and greater clarity is extending right into the high midrange. Drums in particular sound much more like drums. Curiously, my wife also calls the system “silkier” sounding, which I hadn’t immediately noticed. I take this as meaning less distorted right up into the midrange. The soundstage has also got wider and maybe a bit deeper. These subwoofers have provided a whole system upgrade of an order of magnitude I wasn’t expecting.
You cannot spot either tonally or dynamically where one cuts in and the other cuts out, which anyone who knows anything about subs will know that’s no mean feat.

The only downside is that the lack of distortion from all that power definitely causes me to play louder (which I need to control). Basically, the subs have given everything else an upgrade and improved openness across the board (other than at the very top end), and now it shows! I’m also noticing more variation between recordings, which logically means more information is coming through whether or not I can figure out exactly what is better.
Oddly, this seemed to be having the effect of making the upper mid / top end seem a bit more recessed and definitely a little harder sounding. I think the greater openness or clarity from the midrange down was showing up the top end. This hardness meant some vocals sounded more strident or transistorised, which wasn’t enjoyable. You could think of it as I was getting more hifi but possibly a bit less music. Remember these were brand new. Happily REL had offered to come back after a month and tweak the set up after the amps and cones had bedded in so I wasn’t too stressed by this. I had a suspicion for what might be causing this hardness effect, so while waiting for Rob to arrive and tweak the subs I thought I’d investigate based on past experience.

I narrowed this strident effect to one or a combination of three possibilities: 1/ It might be the class D amplification crossing over as high as 100Hz, & the metal cones hardening up the sound. I thought this might be helped by crossover adjustment once they had settled in a bit; 2/ the lack of distortion from all that power was definitely causing me to play louder (which I need to control) and this could be hardening up the sound, or 3/ the greater overall clarity afforded by the subs is showing up the limitations in the pre amp, which I knew was the weakest point of my system anyway. Basically, the subs have given everything else an upgrade and improved openness other than at the top end, and now it shows!
I suspected the issue was #3 above exacerbated by #2. Over the last few months I have been experimenting with a valve power supply for the pre amp which is significantly more open, and getting this in the system fixed #3. Now it’s just great.

I can’t praise the service from Fanthorpes and Rob highly enough, but I have to especially praise the service from Rob and REL in the UK. Prompt response to questions, really knowledgeable on site set up, (and not at all how I thought they would go about setting them up) which has resulted in completely seamless integration between subs and Trios.

So, in summary I’m absolutely delighted. I’m convinced that if the 212SE’s can integrate with high efficiency horns and a 5 w amp they could be made to integrate with pretty much anything. It sounds almost silly to say so but this has been a whole system upgrade and as such actually represented value for money compared to spending it on anything else in my set up.

- Sorry to go on so long. I hope this is helpful to the group.

 

Very clear writing and very entertaining.
Mirrors my experience closely.
I too noticed that effortless subterranean bass extension had the weird effect of adding musicality to the midrange and TREBLE.
Could it be that the introduction of clear fundamental sound waves expressing the dynamic thrust of notes somehow CARRYS the midrange deeper into the room?
And does truly dynamic bass carry the top end along on its back as the wave is formed?
I can't say.
But is is an interesting fact that you and I both were clearly able to find more quality in frequencies supposedly well ABOVE where our extensive subwoofer arrangements were producing sound.
In my case I have a kilo in watts per channel and two sealed bass/mid bass 12s and two 15 inch Velodynes. My Harbeths were only going down to mid 40s on their own.
I find that having variable phase control along with physical placement of the sub voice coils in line with the other voice coils really helped lock the system together.
Having a parametric notch filter available for the bass/mid bass really helped with a bad room mode in my case.
In short, integrating massive bass did not seem to add any smear or boom or bloat to either of our systems. It just takes a specific setup for it to work perfectly.
But the improvement in approaching "reality" is impressive.
Couldn't help commenting.
Somewhere Dave Wilson is smiling as we build truly wide bandwidth systems and enjoy pleasures previous denied to mortals, ha ha.
Excellent report on your part.

 

Appreciate your comments and appreciation, thanks!
I think what is happening to the midrange and treble may be lower harmonic information being reproduced where it wasn't before. Agree with you about the ability to alter phase as well. Weirdly, the SUB225's were much better with inverted phase compared to the main Trios, the REL's work best with normal, i.e non inverted phase. Go figure.
Good to make that nice Mr Wilson happy...

 

Running a REL Stadium III here and it incredibly easy to set up in any location in your room. You clearly know more than me technically I just listen. However my experience does mirror yours except I noticed a clearly improvement in the higher frequencies less strain and more accurate instrumentation.

One thing I have done is isolate my REL from the floor, you still get the bass but your home and next doors won't be excited by all that energy, big improvement sonically. I believe this is partly down to my electronics having reduced mechanical energy producing microphonic effects.

You should have some fun with King Tubby.

 

I have had some fun with King Tubby. Also with Dr Alimantado and Augustus Pablo.

For what its worth, my REL's sounded significantly better (much tighter and cleaner in the bass) with them each sitting on a huge slate slab rathern than directly on the carpet.

 

I honestly don't think slate is going to stop very much at all, although it clearly made a positive difference. I'm using the ancient inner tube 2 under a old wooden shelf with my REL on top of that.

Like your taste in music.

 

Very well written and helpful. I had to look those subs up. Pretty impressive pieces of equipment.

 

....I can't say.
But is is an interesting fact that you and I both were clearly able to find more quality in frequencies supposedly well ABOVE where our extensive subwoofer arrangements were producing sound.
In my case I have a kilo in watts per channel and two sealed bass/mid bass 12s and two 15 inch Velodynes. My Harbeths were only going down to mid 40s on their own.
I find that having variable phase control along with physical placement of the sub voice coils in line with the other voice coils really helped lock the system together.
Having a parametric notch filter available for the bass/mid bass really helped with a bad room mode in my case....

[/QUOTE]



One further thought Doctor Fine. I have found that varying the physical placement of the sub voice coils BEHIND the other voice coils made a lot of differenc to the imaging capabilities of the system. If you have the room it may well be worth playing with moving them back a bit.

 

Wayne I studied speaker placement for ten years with John Hunter's group at Sumiko.
He calls it the "Sumiko Master Set" and it involves getting off your ass and moving everything for as long as it takes to be sure you have timed everything to arrive in phase as a tight group at your chair.
Believe me that I have experimented quite a long time now that I am retired and not charging my usual two hundred an hour.
For the first five years of my retirement I got up every morning with fresh ears and coffee and moved everything including all the furniture for a couple hours a day.
That works out to approximately, let's see....365X2X5X200= $$$730,000 billable to myself in labor.
Best $730,000 I ever spent.
Hint to those that don't know it:

Your system is greatly limited by your lack of experimentation in room placement and treatment.
Only YOU can decide when there is absolutely NOTHING left on the table in the way of acoustic improvement.
And yes, it takes YEARS sometimes to be SURE.
On the other hand the second time I moved the system it took me only two years.
Then the third time it only took six months.
I'm getting better at this system as I go along, ha ha.
But seriously, thanks for the suggestion.
You are preaching to the choir.

 

Dr F, I'm not preaching at you or in anyway trying to decry your expertise or be patronising. It's a very small choir that understands this stuff.
- Good man! Agree with all you are saying.

 

Ah how I wish the contributors to Steve Hoffman would stop buying new gadgets and instead play around with the install for the gadgets that they already own.
If they only knew how much the install affects the results...
Well let's say a lot of BS would be retired and informed opinions would rule the day.
Not bloody likely I hear you say.
Well I'll drink to THAT.
Now where is that nice summer drink of Gin and Tonic and all the concurrent pleasures it affords?
Ah.
There it is.
Amazing how liquid my stereo sounds with a little hooch, ha ha.

 

WayneC, Excellent report! Thanks for posting such a detailed description. I do have a question though—-does the REL have an active high-pass crossover for the horns? If so then I suspect that might account for some of the HF degradation you noted.

 

Thanks for your comment.
Without looking it up I'm not sure now, but the HF degradation was definitely due to the pre amp, as I commented on in the description.

 

I find it incomprehensible that a sub costing $4000 plus does NOT come with program software and a calibrated mike that would allow the sub to be integrated into the room and the main speakers as does the Velodyne DD series and to a lesser extent the JL subs.

I owned a DD15 which permitted me to manually configure the sub to minimize bass nodes and integrate it with my main speakers with a mind boggling array of choices to integrate the sub. And if I were lazy I could just allow the sub to automatically make all required adjustments except the ability to integrate it with the main speakers - only the sub output.

YMMV

 

<shrug> OK...

 

Jusst a brief update.
After 2 months use the subs continue to free up and sound better & better. They now go down further more easily, more dynamic and sounding faster. The only change to set up is I've had to turn them down a bit more and dropped the cross over point a tiny bit...